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46 Comments
Barb Hansen
CTO/Co-founder. Product Leader.
3.09k
12/15/20 at 9:01PM UTC
Tough one.
Job #1 - good job with the less than great manager
I would only take Job #1 if I was pretty sure that there was job growth possibility pretty quickly so I could move away from that manager, into another job title or group within that company
Job #2 - less than great pay with a better manager
I would see if Job #2 could push their salary closer to what I needed, and if I could live on the salary that they were offering, I would lean towards Job #2,
Working for a crappy manager can be torturous and might not be worth the additional money.
Good luck with your decision, you're in a tricky spot.
20
2 Replies
Balanced935126
90
12/17/20 at 2:43PM UTC
That might be why #1 is offering so much. They may know and can't get rid of him so they hire the best under him
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Paula McCabe
51
12/17/20 at 3:56PM UTC
Research continuously shows that people quit because of their manager not because of their comp.
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Malissa Controller in the Agricultural Industry.
535
12/15/20 at 9:41PM UTC
#1---You will likely learn more there in 2 years. The advantage of working for an incompetent boss is that you get to learn and do things that would take you years if not decades to touch in another company. If you can hack it for two years you would be better situated to jump to a higher roll when the opportunity presents itself.
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Elaine
28
12/15/20 at 9:47PM UTC
#2 since I have been in #1 and that leaves a lasting impression. Your timeline and opportunities in that company will be based on what your incompetent boss thinks of you.
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Anonymous
12/15/20 at 10:03PM UTC
I would choose #1 as I aim to maximize my value in terms of starting salary. A title change is easily negotiated so come up with a list of industry acceptable names to propose.
As for the lame manager....you might discover that you can maneuver around him so it's tolerable. Either way, they will be paying you an acceptable salary while you plan your next move.
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Anonymous
12/15/20 at 10:55PM UTC
Offering you less in salary signals that the #2 company is less competitive and maybe tone deaf to the market place. It begs the question what else do they skimp on? With 30 years of experience you are well equipped to negotiate title and navigate a dumbed down manager.
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1 Reply
JYJ
1.32k
12/15/20 at 10:59PM UTC
They will not budge on the title.
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1 Reply
Anonymous
12/16/20 at 5:53PM UTC
I would go for the proper salary offer of #1 and see if you can figure out ways to work the career path. #2 sounds very bottom tier but nice.
But if you don't need the salary and would rather have a nice boss then go for #2.
It just depends on your priorities.
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Lesa EdwardsTHE career expert for high achievers
628
12/16/20 at 1PM UTC
Anonymous, I recommend working backward on this one. Where do you want to be in, for example, three years? Journal what your day looks like...what your working environment looks like...what your compensation looks like. Then compare your journaling with what you know about each of these positions and decide for yourself which one best fits.
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Marian DyerDon't be a jerk.
158
12/16/20 at 1:23PM UTC
My thought is maybe keep looking. It sounds like neither is ideal and so why jump in? If you can't wait, I'd probably take #1 and still keep looking. Best of luck.
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1 Reply
Georgene HuangCEO & Co-founder of Fairygodboss
2.75k
12/16/20 at 2PM UTC
Great point. Another way of saying what you're suggesting is to focus on the objective(s) here. Possibilities include money, career satisfaction, specific experience/skills gained...Are all of them equally important? If it's money then #1, if it's career satisfaction it still might be #1 (depending on whether you agree with above users on whether that makes for a good learning experience). But it could be #2 here, too.
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Aubrey
24
12/17/20 at 12:20AM UTC
Imagine your daily work life - which option feels like it will produce the most satisfaction for you? I don't know about you, but working for an incompetent boss is a deal breaker as it makes life miserable.
For option 2, think about what other negotiations do you want? Perhaps a reduced work schedule for the lower wage? But first, hold the salary line and see how far they will move. Women are notorious for caving in or not negotiating at all.
It's entirely possible that option #3 is best -- to keep looking.
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Alison SwerdloffSelf-Care and Self-Discovery Consultant
95
12/17/20 at 1:12PM UTC
I would sit down, journal or talk it through with someone who's opinion you respect, preferably someone who knows your strengths and weaknesses and can view both with an objective eye. Sometimes it takes a person who us not directly involved to see what you might not be able to. With #1, would working for an incompetent supervisor be horrible or prevent your further growth with the company? With #2, is their lower salary so much lower that you truly can't survive, or might it be worth taking if you know there is growth opportunities. Also, are you salary requirements so much higher than what the industry generally warrants for this type of position? Weigh these things out, speak to a trusted confidant and journal. You might be surprised what you discover.
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Marci
12
12/17/20 at 1:12PM UTC
I think the answer would be while reading through all these opinions which job did you defend more? #1 or #2? That’s where your heart lies.
I will say be careful taking a big pay cut. I’ve done that out of necessity because I moved to an area with less opportunities and am still working my way back up. But I’ve also worked the incompetent boss route and if you’re good they’ll do everything in their power to keep you, which can lock you in unless you completely leave the company or get lucky with networking outside of their knowledge. Good luck to you and always follow your heart.
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Marianna Boncek
83
12/17/20 at 1:23PM UTC
#1: Know your value. #2 isn't willing to value your experience--why would you work there? It's a tough choice but remember at 30 years experience, you're probably NOT looking at 30 years with this company. You have to look out for your 401K, social security and YOUR future. If the incompetent boss is not malicious you'll be able to do your thing without too much interference--and remember, people aren't fixtures. He may move on at some time, too.
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Stephanie Chernoff
138
12/17/20 at 1:37PM UTC
Unless you absolutely need one of these jobs, I wouldn’t take either. A job with an incompetent boss and no growth path sounds like hell. A job that doesn’t cover your salary needs just means you’ll be looking again shortly anyway.
1 Reply
Audrey Kirsch
50
12/17/20 at 5:44PM UTC
I agree. The frustration of doing great work for an incompetent manager who will get the credit is just not worth it. And, taking less money than you need doesn't make sense unless you think there are advancement opportunities or you just need a job right now. You found 2 companies willing to hire you so you're bound to find another that will better meet what you are looking for. I say, keep looking.
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Anonymous
12/17/20 at 1:38PM UTC
Just think about this for a second, before making your choice: People don’t leave jobs, they leave managers.
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Cyndy TrivellaManaging Partner, Media & Marketing Consultancy
62
12/17/20 at 1:40PM UTC
A tough decision, indeed, but it doesn't sound like either option is right for you. Working for a mediocre boss in a role where you might get stuck indefinitely or a role where they have already undervalued your worth by offering you a salary below your experience level. Two very important things are at stake here: 1) your job satisfaction and state of mind working for an ineffective manager, and 2) your finances.
Is it possible to explore a third and fourth option? If not, I recommend doing a Benjamin Franklin list of pros and cons with the two options presented to you. If you're not familiar with this tact, here is a link that explains how to do this: https://www.smartdraw.com/collaboration/making-decisions-ben-franklin.htm
I wish you all the best.
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Jennifer Wuollet
35
12/17/20 at 1:48PM UTC
I have been in both situations, if there truly is no malicious intent for #1 then working for an incompetent boss isn't really all that bad, it means more work for you and you may have to back manage but make sure they are willing to promote you. Even if it's just putting in a good word with upper management or praising your good work to others. Does he speak well of the people he works with? If so then you are probably good, if not, then RUN. I have been in both situations, I hope to never see one guy ever again in my life and the other I talk to on a regular basis.
As far as taking less money, as the others have said, if you like the job and the ability to climb and don't really need the money, then maybe this is the fit for you.
If neither of them feel right, then keep looking.
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Ashley BasilioProduct Development Manager, Program Leadership
67
12/17/20 at 1:53PM UTC
Do you have to accept either one right now? maybe neither is the right fit. if you are in a position to wait it out then maybe that would be the best decision.
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Anonymous
12/17/20 at 1:57PM UTC
There’s a balance to consider on valuing growth versus stability and financial reward. I have found that answer to be different for every one of us. For me, the question would be what do I want out of my career at this stage? Am I looking to grow and prolong my career 7-10-15 years, or am I looking for that 3-5 year job and move into another phase of life. #1 will not help you if you want the growth to prolong your career for that 7-10-15 year stretch. #2 only pays off if you actually do get to achieve career growth, go to your next company or job, and work another 7-10 years. I don’t envy your choice, but I wish you the best of luck with whichever you decide. I am not in your career phase when I made a similar decision earlier this year. I was looking for how I extend my career for the next 15-20 years. I was going to take #2 for the opportunity growth. However, timing would not work out, and COVID hit. So I ended up taking #1 and will see how it goes from here. When my market improves, I may look again.
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Fiberartist219Automotive finance
160
12/17/20 at 2:30PM UTC
I would take the first one. I am so sick of being underpaid. I don't go to work to make friends. I have endured some terrible bosses over the years, and they come and go. Or, I could leave if I really hated it. If they were doing something immoral, I would avoid them, but just being a dense person who lets their direct reports do all the work? Well, I am already that boss, so....
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Sam TranHeavy Highway & Marine Construction Engineer
54
12/17/20 at 2:35PM UTC
Why is title so important? Sounds like #1 is already showing you some red flags. Money isn't everything, nor is title. Find a place that makes you happy, because we spend more time at work then we do with our families, and if you're miserable at work, you're miserable at home too.
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Judy Stern
27
12/17/20 at 2:39PM UTC
Another option with #2 is see what else they can offer you - more vacation time, more flexible work schedule, bigger 401k match, profit sharing. As everyone else has said it's about what you value more. I've taken pay cuts and am still trying to work my way back up but I've also worked for bad managers and hated going to work every day. I don't envy you. Good Luck.
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Jacqueline CutlerJournalist
68
12/17/20 at 2:48PM UTC
It's a tough but wonderful choice you have. Personally, having worked for incompetent, younger men I would rather take a pay cut or a lesser job title that endure those agonies again.
A former boss, and still a dear friend, told me how she once had to get creative and gave everyone these lofty titles because she had such little money for raises. For me, personally, the title means little. In fact, I always just give a one-word description of what I do when asked for a title. And each workplace seems to have its own spin on the title.
I am not, though, discounting the money. More money is usually better. Since the title seems important to you and #2 is willing to negotiate on that and you did not stress that the money was the driving force, I would go with #2.
My guess is you are at least 50 (I'm older than that) and there is much to be said about working with a great team and not having the angst that a younger, incompetent boss is certain to bring.
Congratulations on having two options, and I wish you great success with the new post.
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Alicia
19
12/17/20 at 3PM UTC
I'm struck by how you characterize Company #1 as a "good company" vs Company #2 as "nice". Based on that, I'd probably pick #1 because of the combo of better company + better salary. I don't get too hung up on titles, myself - and that's something that likely can be changed once you've proven your worth. Just make sure that if you do pick #1, you get visibility of your contributions by other people than your boss.
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Christina SantoroWholesale Footwear Sales Executive
30
12/17/20 at 3:06PM UTC
If you have 30 years experience I am guessing you are entering the phase in your life when ageism is a potential issue. Therefore, future opportunities may be few and far between. I would say that if you have the financial capability to take a lower salary (if negotiating higher doesn't work), then I would take offer #2. Depending on how many more years you plan to work, why would you put yourself in a position to advance someone else's value potentially at the expense of your own happiness? Maybe you can negotiate some other intangibles at offer #2 (stock options, additional vacation, remote work capability, increased benefits) that makes it a better overall package? If you have a bad feeling or hesitancy about manager #1, your gut is probably right and you will be overworked and undervalued because the credit will go to the incompetent boss (and he is probably not a leader). Do you need this in your life at this stage of your career?
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ajdenery
216
12/17/20 at 3:07PM UTC
Working for an incompetent is a solid line I will not cross again. I’d say take one more pass at negotiating the salary with option 2, especially with another offer on the table.
In the end though, I’ve come to the conclusion that the people you work with make the biggest difference. If you can survive financially without hardship, think of the cost of replacing all that hair you’ll pull out dealing with an inept man as a supervisor. Is it worth it?
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BeaBoss500113Accounting consultant
281
12/17/20 at 3:09PM UTC
How about the benefits of each job, and the personal expenses you will incur such as commuting and lunch. Job #1 may pay more but if you have to spend more in gas if the commute is further you may end up with less. How about PTO? If all equal I would take the higher paying job.
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Katie MaloneSocial Media Manager + Mother to two daughter
1.15k
12/17/20 at 3:13PM UTC
How much will you interface with the boss in job #1? Because if it's not very often and there's a strong team around him, that may help. I am leaning towards job #1. In normal circumstances, I would never take a job below market value.
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Taylor AdamsT & D Manager, EQ Fanatic and Wellness Advocate
49
12/17/20 at 3:30PM UTC
When I previously found myself in this position, I had to ask myself what was most important.
Do you feel you need strong leadership from the person above you or do you typically perform independently anyway?
How important is being paid for your value?
How much does the title matter to you?
We each might have very different answers to these questions, and that’s okay! Look a little deeper into what matters to you in your professional world and go from there.
I’d also consider other pros/cons of the organizations. Health benefits, PTO, work/life balance, flexibility, parental leave, bonus structure, salary transparency, growth potential, education/development support, etc.
It’s tough because making the right decision will matter each day you walk into those front doors, but trust your gut.
Wish you the best!
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Rosa Goes
94
12/17/20 at 3:41PM UTC
I would keep looking. Both jobs sound like misery: Job #1 because of manager & title; Job #2 because of salary. Take time to evaluate what is important to you. If you have to take a job, I would ask for an informal interview with the team at Job #1 to get a feel for environment/culture, how long they've been there, what they like most about company, etc.
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surfnwrite
96
12/17/20 at 4:50PM UTC
Truthfully I would wait for Door #3.
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Tiasha Stevenson
88
12/17/20 at 5:43PM UTC
#1 or neither. Never take less than you’re worth.
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dearannelee
19
12/17/20 at 5:58PM UTC
Job #1. Believe me - you can navigate the direct report - and establish relationships across the company that support you. If you are positive and effective even elevate Mr. Mediocre. He wont' recognize it - but others will. Don't take something below your market value. Just be sure the larger company culture doesn't protect mediocrity at the expense of the effective. I am currently in that situation. Take a wider look at the company - but don't take less than you are worth.
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Anonymous
12/17/20 at 6:18PM UTC
I agree with the above posters who said to take #1. You are an executive with 30 years of experience, never settle for less than what you are worth.
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Anonymous
12/17/20 at 6:38PM UTC
I would not worry about the title. All companies have different rules when it comes to titles and the truth is you can put whatever description that describes your position on a resume in the future that you want. When you say incompetent that can mean a lot of different things. Some are easy to adapt to and others can make life hell. So hard to say if option #1 is a good one. Option #2, do you need a job right now? If the salary is below what you want will it provide the lifestyle you want? If the answer to these questions is No then I would not accept it.
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Cathy Finn-DereckiDigital Creative in California
17
12/17/20 at 6:39PM UTC
If you are currently employed, I would keep looking. If you absolutely have to pick one of these two, I'd go with whichever job will set you up to go even further in two years.
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Elle SivaI am energized to bring the change!
242
12/17/20 at 8:40PM UTC
Your best option:
1. Use the offer from job 1 to bring the offer from job 2 higher to something you can work with. What you get back in enjoying your life will be worth it, but if they play you, they probably won’t stop. Maybe it’s gender, maybe they are in a bad financial position with their balance sheet - mention ur additive value.
Do not take offer 1. Incompetent and or toxic managers who make it there are gaming the system and they thrive on trapping people where they are because you become a piece of what helps them keep gaming the system.
In 2007 I was faced with 2 bad options and I still have dreams about working for the company I left. The issue was two fold, the organization had no upward mobility because people loved it so much that no one left. I was 25 when I started and 28 when I left so I needed career growth. What made the matter to leave seem more pressing was that a huge national training event was going to be in New Orleans the next year to help stimulate the economy and I’m essential and would have to go there for meetings before. But I still had a suppressed immune system and chronic respiratory and sinus problems, had already become antibiotic resistant, and the issues with mold, etc., in New Orleans was all over the news. I knew despite how great my company was, they would not understand.
I got two offers the same week. Job 1 was an amazing job at HHS as a GS 13 and job 2 was management consulting at the big 5. Job 1 was going to meet the salary, but they would not tell me who my supervisor would be. A peer of mine who recently left that office said that was a horrible sign and said I should decline based on how the particular unit offering the job functions.
I accepted job 2 because great salary, working with the best and brightest, and still did work creating immediate results, but I worked for a manager that a friend of mine called “A house of cards” 2 years into the job. I asked what he meant by that. He said, she knows how to say all the right things, but she’s standing on all your shoulders and pretending she knows how to get the work done. My friend was a manager who just happened to end up there too.
Through the years I’ve learned how the people who can’t “do”, charm, lie, and snake their way around. The bad ones will play dumb and another instant they talk like an expert. The house of cards people always have their game face of intelligence on tho. Both are the types of managers you should run from.
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Caree Gordon
39
12/17/20 at 9:08PM UTC
Just remember, "People don't leave jobs, they leave bad leaders."
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Anonymous
12/17/20 at 9:23PM UTC
I would tend to agree with Elle. My gut instinct was that this reflects what is happening to me currently, and I would suggest to use the offer from #1 to negotiate a better offer from #2. I am at a company now that does not recognize my education, experience or my accomplishments and has been promoting younger mangers to positions I explicitly asked to be considered for. There is a real ageism thing going on here, as they have all but said that they want to "groom" people that would do this for 30+ years, which at this point would make me 95. The 60+ vulnerability with COVID-19 has scared a lot of managers and I am seeing a lot getting passed over, because there is this impression that we have the proverbial "foot in the grave with the other foot on a banana peel" when many of us can likely give them another 10-15+ years. I am truly afraid that this tactic is going to backfire, as, because we are non-profit and what they will be doing is training and grooming a set of young workers that will bail in 4 or 5 years to higher paying state or federal jobs once they have passed that magic 5-year experience mark.
In your situation, I would look at where you would likely be 5 years from now with each company. It is likely that Company #1, you will still be doing what you were hired to do, where company #2 has apparent room for growth and new and more exciting experiences. While working for an incompetent manager may have it's positives, this manager also has the ability to bring the whole team down. In spite of the best efforts of the teammates, poor planning and/or budgeting (which are often the sole responsibility of the manager) can reflect poorly on the entire team when a project derails. On the other hand, if the team is able to "pull it off" anyway, the manager ends up getting the credit for the success. This is a set-up for a lose-lose scenario, and that is a spot that nobody should want to be.
I would vote for using the first offer to leverage negotiation for the second job and see where that takes you. Be careful of promises of future rewards for performance unless you have them in writing, though.
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Anonymous
12/18/20 at 6:29AM UTC
Thanks for updating us on how this went! Can you provide advice on how you were able to navigate this situation and get your salary increased?
1 Reply
JYJ
1.32k
12/18/20 at 1:59PM UTC
Honestly, I was just transparent that I had another offer, but they were my first choice and asked what they could do to make their offer more competitive. It helped that the team really wanted me.
2
1 Reply
Anonymous
12/23/20 at 3:12AM UTC
Thank you!
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