I feel like I am never going to be cut out for upper management

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Anonymous

01/14/21 at 6:28PM UTC

Career

I feel like I am never going to be cut out for upper management

I have interviewed now for 3 very senior roles (VP level) and each time I have walked away feeling like I just escaped from a den of snakes. These roles seem to be held/led by people who have a very narrow minded viewpoint of the world, they want someone who is elite, socially liberal, politically connected and knows their place in the hierarchy. My most recent interview was at an ivy league college with a very senior female leader. She made it clear to me that they really wanted an alum to fill this vacancy or at least a graduate from a very exclusive, liberal background. No riff raff like me with a state school degree. It was basically implied that someone like me couldn't possibly understand life at an Ivy league school or the special people who attend or teach there. It felt very Good Will Hunting, the snooty MIT professor absolutely unbelieving that a guy from Southie who sweeps floors could understand his complex math. Earlier this year I interviewed at an international engineering firm where I was quizzed on my political and social memberships/clubs/connections. They clearly wanted to make sure I would contribute and be invited to state and federal politics and be able to call on people for favors. It was also an incredibly sexist environment, they let me know that no female had done this role before. I also had an interview at a large consulting firm, again, questions asked about my involvement with city and state politicians, how I felt about various BLM topics and I could tell they were looking for someone more sophisticated and politically connected. I am not in sales, I do not have a business development angle to my career or these jobs. These are primarily technical VP roles. The college interviewer was most off putting to me, she clearly has had a privileged life, she is an alum of some pretty exclusive schools (Andover/Wellesley College/Harvard). I doubt she has ever had to worry about paying a student loan or making the electric company payment. She came off as though reeking of privilege which I will never have. She name dropped a number of leading politicians in the conversation and my research came up with articles showing her being an advisor to mayors, representatives and senators. I didn't realize this was what the VP level was like, at least at large companies/universities. I am so disheartened. I have spent the last 20 years being a star player, rising up the tech side of business, now that seems like the highest I can go. I am not in IT, I am in the physical engineering side of the world.

37 Comments

Anonymous

01/14/21 at 7:57PM UTC

I completely expect the ivy league university response....duh. The others to a certain extent have vested interest in funding at a very high and visible level so yes their politics would influence their choice in executives hires. But the is a whole world of startups and mid-level young companies very open to more diverse leadership and think much differently than your traditional companies steeped in obvious funding avenues. Albeit probably not as high profile as you'd like but they are in a more growth/developing phase. Have you received interest from that sector?

Lesa Edwards

780

THE career expert for high achievers

01/14/21 at 8:48PM UTC

Clearly the woman from the ivy league school has tons of insecurity - there is no other reason for her to be such a snob to you! Wipe that experience off the soles of your shoes. (Worked in higher ed for 20+ years; her behavior doesn't surprise me one little bit.) I agree with the previous comment - where are you looking for roles? How are you vetting the companies out before applying? It seems like you are attracting the wrong kind of interest. Because you can't do anything about how the people who look at your resume perceive you or what they perceive the role to entail, you can only control where you apply and how you show up should you get an interview.

Susie Kendis

Helping leaders out-perform against their goals

01/14/21 at 8:52PM UTC

If these interviewers do have specific requirements, one would hope that they're organized and transparent enough to clearly articulate those requirements in the job postings rather than wasting their time and yours. Also, teams that are diverse perform better, so their closed-mindedness is impeding what they can achieve. I think you've dodged a few bullets, honestly. Move on, keep networking and interviewing, and you'll find the right fit for you.

1 Reply

Stephanie F

147

Senior HR Manager, Talent Acquisition

01/17/21 at 4:41AM UTC

I agree! Definitely dodged a bullet. And I am sure they did not clearly articulate requirements in the posting.

Wonder Russell

01/14/21 at 9:20PM UTC

At a VP level, the focus is going to be on a cultural fit rather than individual contributions. Interviews are a two-way street; if you felt that they wouldn't truly value you (if the workplace was sexist and elitist), that would be a less than satisfying professional experience. Stick with the search and you will find the company that is the best fit for YOU! It also might be worth reaching out to a recruiter to broaden the net.

Anonymous

01/14/21 at 9:22PM UTC

I recently left an "old boys club" b/c I couldn't even get to manager, much less paid fairly (relative to my male peers)! I know it's going to be more difficult than not to find a workplace culture where I fit, but it's possible. For you also... It's out there. Keep looking. Each interview brings you closer to the right fit for you. Really. Good luck!!

1 Reply

Anonymous

01/14/21 at 9:33PM UTC

P.S. I generally don't mention my Ivy League degree (one of the "lesser" Ivys, lots of financial aid recipients including myself, so not as much snobbery?), but when my mgmt said there "just" aren't female engineers to hire, I contacted a female engineering Professor at my alma mater (now 50% of both the engineering professors and students are women) and threw it in their faces. Teasing: So I guess I'm willing to use it for revenge. Seriously: Hierarchy and I don't jive. I know too many Will Huntings. Unfortunately many (most?) people do play that power game. Yuck.

Anonymous

01/15/21 at 2:52AM UTC

It sounds like you are facing ALOT of unconscious /conscious biases in these interviews. Have you tried telling the HR representative you were in touch with about this? Unfortunately, this is so common from hiring managers, senior executives but unless HR or the public, knows about it, there is no hope of that changing. Have you also left anonymous reviews of your interview process experiences so that other women interviewing can know what to expect if they work at these places? I know it is not a solution, but may be helpful in getting them to understand their behavior. I am sorry to hear this is happening to you. Just think of it as a positive that you avoided having to work at a palce that values all the wrong things.

1 Reply

Arbil

01/16/21 at 1:09PM UTC

Yep. Glassdoor.

Anonymous

01/15/21 at 2PM UTC

You're targeting the wrong companies. What research did you do on these companies before you even decided to apply? You also need to do some introspection about your own biases. You're coming across as bitter that these people have connections and influence that you don't. Mostly, I think you need to do a better job of researching companies.

2 Replies

Anonymous

01/15/21 at 9:31PM UTC

I'm not clear what sort of research you suggest. I have reviewed online information about them, leveraged my LinkedIn network if I have connections there and spoken to community members. Do you have some sort of specific research I should be doing? I am bitter because I was not born into wealth, I don't hold elite views because I am a regular working person. I do find the idea that only blue bloods can hold leadership roles off putting.

2 Replies

Anonymous

01/15/21 at 9:57PM UTC

If you did all that and still missed all the things you're complaining about, something in your approach isn't working. You will continue to have difficulty getting into a leadership position if you cannot overcome your negative biases about people with more money, status, and connections than you. If the bitterness is emanating off your written words, imagine how it's coming across in person. I don't think you're going to progress the way you want to unless and until you figure out how to get past it. Maybe consider talking to someone - an objective ear can yield a lot of insights.

1 Reply

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 5:45AM UTC

Reading this post screams ‘executive coaching required’. Gift yourself with these sessions and you won’t regret it!

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 2:46PM UTC

I agree with other comments regarding addressing your bitterness wrt to privilege. I had to overcome that myself and transform it into positive motivation. In my previous position my bitterness = grit! But doesn't serve me in the same way as I move up in management. Best of luck!

Arbil

01/16/21 at 1:13PM UTC

This type of class elitism is pervasive in society. Organizations are microcosms of society. To suggest with minimal information that she must be doing something wrong overlooks systemic realities. Labeling a woman “bitter” after running into very real walls of social class elitism pervasive at the executive level is dismissive and misogynistic. You might look into how social class matters at work as well as internalized misogyny. It’s 2021. I thought everyone got the memo last year that “cultural fit” is codified language for systemic bias and exclusion. Imagine if the poster where a person of color frustrated at the biased experienced in interviews. Now imagine telling them they must be interviewing at the wrong companies when we all know systemic racism is pervasive and hard on the spirit.

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 1:55PM UTC

1 Reply

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 3:58PM UTC

Your post is the most condescending, insulting, denigrating, and rude thing I've seen in a while. Thank you for assuming that I must be completely stupid and unaware. You also must have missed the part where the OP ADMITTED that she's bitter and angry about people who have more than she does. She has to own it before she can figure out how to overcome it. If she can't or won't do that, she won't get what she wants. It's that simple.

1 Reply

Arbil

01/16/21 at 4:22PM UTC

You didn’t acknowledge systemic class privilege. Disappointing. Going by your comments, it seems you have a worldview that if people do the “right things” then you will get what they want. If you don’t then it must a personal failing. This is deficit-thinking that women and/or other marginalized groups have to deal with. Some people can’t tolerate knowing the world is unjust or ambiguous. I’m not saying she may need to work on some stuff. There’s too much missing info to diagnosis the poster’s challenges to even give targeted advice, let alone “You are messing it up, lady!” Sure she’ll have to accept the elitist executive suite - as we all do - and she can still not get what she wants. I don’t think she isn’t aware that she has buckled down and keeping going or bust. I think she’s looking for validation or commiseration for a unique challenge most women aren’t facing along with ideas on how to proceed.

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 4:35PM UTC

2 Replies

Kate BonDurant, PMP

Creative Strategist | Passionate Culture Builder

01/15/21 at 4:15PM UTC

Not everyone is well suited to management. I’m sorry and based on the other comments plus my own experience you are far from alone so that’s worth a solid DEO breath right there. When managers do this they are projecting and usually have pressure (sometimes new, sometimes gradually building) that ultimately they take out on you in their own pursuit of self and team preservation. It’s not worth rearranging your schedule to reach out to coworkers on this topic however it is worth to start the habit of checking in with them regularly on how you’re doing... asking little questions at the end of a conversation or meeting can do a lot to show you care about them. Specifically in helping them succeed at work too. The best thing which I admit can be emotionally challenging is to put your damaged pride aside for a little and request a follow up with your boss. You’re doing damage control on your perception, not your communication style because you don’t have enough information to the later. Tell your boss you’ve been thinking a lot about the feedback they gave you and you want to talk through it some more. Give them the heads up so they can mentally prepare to do that for you. Be honest in your reaction and why you’re struggling. (Good feedback and suddenly not, hitting opportunities, vague source doesn’t give you much to understand what it’s the problem or how to fix it) good managers know that good feedback needs to be specific and timely. Thus clearly wasn’t either. Be patient with yourself and your boss. I wish I could give you advice that would help you feel less anxious about this but the only way is through. I lost a promised promotion and after 4 years of working with my boss and getting glowing reports I started to see some inconsistent behavior. She said good things when asked in our touch based but on a day to day working, she started to be short with me, complaining about work, frustrated, avoiding me. I confronted the problem and pushed her to explain these discrepancies but still only got glowing feedback. Then they restructure the team and she essentially threw me under the bus. I got a litany off things I want performing on, that my work was slacking and told that I was never getting the promotion. I found out that her new boss wanted her out so was using my department to throw her under the bus so they made up all these reasons the department was failing. I was moved out of my beloved department and she took over. The department failed immediately and we were both laid off for COVID. The thing to note is that my boss was going through her second divorce, a continuing custody battle of sorts, her former direct report becoming her new boss and pushing her out, loss of a mentor, and the list goes on. It wasn’t about me. Now, is there room I could have improved? Absolutely I was human. Was I failing to the degree they depicted for me? Absolutely not. Did it matter in me keeping my job? No That’s what this boils down to I’m sad to say. Do your best to sniff out the source of the feedback, like mine, it might not be where they say it is. Address it in a humble and constructive way. And listen to your gut.

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 1:23PM UTC

This is what I’m feeling as well. But you made it this far. Some people may be stuck in lower levels. The good thing is that you keep growing in the direction you want. Maybe you are not interested in joining a club of elitist. But how about a club of other higher level professionals with the values you have? I saw a post the other day that there are about 8 woman presidents, and they are doing a good job in their role in pandemic. The stats are getting better. Paving the way is hard, but maybe don’t pave a whole new road. Try somewhere that the road is half paved. Best!

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 1:26PM UTC

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 1:40PM UTC

At there any opportunities to advance at your current company.? I find myself in a similar position, for several reasons, but largely because I have moved around too much when I would encounter glass doors and ceilings. In retrospect, if I would have held out, instead of leaving the company, I might have found myself in a leadership role at this point. Sometimes, the grass isn’t greener, and the opportunities are found working through the adversity you see in front of you in your current position.

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 1:41PM UTC

1 Reply

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 3:24PM UTC

Completely agree on this. All of the high level people at my company have been with the company for awhile or are well connected in the industry. The ones that haven’t, honestly didn’t know how to steer the ship and had to abort. At the end of the day, you want someone that knows the job, the industry and will be a cultural fit.

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 3:25PM UTC

Heather Cutler

185

01/16/21 at 1:42PM UTC

I’m noticing a common theme in these positions, they all include a political component and you’re being asked to describe your connections...yet I’m getting the sense that these questions are coming as a complete shock to you. Was this requirement in the job description or are these non-germane conversations coming out of left field in your interviews? I’m trying to understand how these discussions come up in the interview if there’s no direct connection to the position that you describe as technical. Would you be comfortable asking how political connections would improve your ability to perform the job? Kudos to you for recognizing this pattern in interviews and trying to improve your response. Best of luck to you!

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 2:08PM UTC

Asking about your politics and how you feel about BLM... or what politic groups you are involved in is quite frankly none of their business and reeks of illegal unless you are applying for a role that’s in politics or lobbying. Let me be clear your race, sex, and political leanings have nothing to do with your technical knowledge. I’d walk out of the interview. Candidates stopping the interview process is more common than you think. We had a candidate tell off our CEO because he was horrid to them in the interview. The guy said he didn’t want to work for him and disconnected from the video call. The feedback to our recruiter from this candidate was epic. Asking a person of color their view point on BLM is the same as assuming they like certain foods. It’s disgusting. I had an interviewer assume my politics based on my Irish Surname and my location. They were dead wrong and I reported this illegal action to the hiring manager. The only good thing about having this brought up is you were given a fast view of company culture. They want and only hire like minded individuals and group think. There is a grand thing to failing fast. Never put red flags on culture aside unless you are truly desperate for any job. I will also ask you to look at the organizations you are looking at to join. Look at the management suite bios for patterns. Are they all Ivy League ? What are the charities sponsored? Google the leadership team to see who they are in their personal life. If they Google you, what do they i Finally, ask yourself why you want this step up. Are you finding that the real work is POLITICAL vs technical? It is okay to be happy at the amazing level and work you do. Take it from me, being a VP as a title, isn’t nirvana. There are recruiters which can help you to find the right match. Don’t settle. Don’t put up with this behavior from pompous interviewers. An interview is a two way street. You can politely refuse to answer a question. I have. It scared me at first. It didn’t stop me from moving thru the interview process. I also declined the role. The inappropriate question asked of me (current salary -illegal to ask) certainly factored into me saying no thank you. One question you can ask when faced with an inappropriate question is “ why do you want to know?” Can you share how you are involved before I answer? Answer inappropriate questions with probing questions on the why? Then shut up and let them sit with the awkward silence. Good luck. I’m sorry you have faced this. Remember the new CEO of FEDEx started as their receptionist.

Kori N

Hospice and healthcare Heroine

01/16/21 at 3:08PM UTC

I work in these “ upper echelons” (as a ceo, a coo etc) but my industry is very different than what yours sounds like- so take this insight as you will. I agree with much of what has been said, including examining your own biases and how they may be manifesting themselves. When you start interviewing for vp+ jobs it does get tougher.. more political, internally and externally. And while what you have portrayed here isn’t appropriate to be asked in an interview, the political undercurrent is going to be there...In the interview and probably in the job as well. Certainly your experience has been unfortunate but before you go away with a bad taste in your mouth and even if you don’t want the job in the end consider this... It is tough to sit in some of those higher seats... especially as a woman. Sometimes this toughness is not portrayed well- and we need to give each other a little grace. After all we don’t know others stories and the degree may not say it all. Them making an assumption about you is just as bad as you making an assumption about them. Answer your interview questions with dignity and if you feel they are inappropriate questions, say that and don’t answer. There are many people who would appreciate your candor. Some interview questions are also pre-determined, so it may not even be something they care about but just have to ask. Try to get past the questions and connect with the person interviewing... in the end my experience has indicated that is what will really move you up not the questions themselves.

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 3:09PM UTC

1 Reply

C Guynes

Committed to Business Excellence

01/21/21 at 2:06AM UTC

Great response Kori, especially "Answer your interview questions with dignity and if you feel they are inappropriate questions, say that and don’t answer. There are many people who would appreciate your candor. " I have also found this to be true. And if they don't honor your dignity, maybe it's the wrong home for you. The interview works both ways. Unfortunately, the trend to 20-something HR departments also does not mean you are getting the best view of the company you are interviewing with. Research and networking can help. And prepared questions about methods, practices, service lines, and organizational alignment that the HR rep will not be able to answer may also get you to the next stop.

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 4:33PM UTC

Sounds like some of your interviews were bias and discriminatory of your equal employment opportunity (EEO) all hiring practices should be fair and objective if you could report your experiences each firm/school per Policy & Procedure should have anti-discrimination rules and regulations where you can report their interview panel's practices to sabotage your right to an EEO per protected class violations sex race religion culture socio economic background status political affiliations etc

User edited comment on 01/16/21 at 4:34PM UTC

2 Replies

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 4:35PM UTC

EEOC, union, DFEH are some of the known secular authorities in place regarding discrimination hiring practices involving pre-employment I don't know what entities are in place in private sector but definitely use your voice and Report these matters when they occur and when you experience them

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 5:40PM UTC

Not necessarily if they relate to the policies of an organization. High ed in particular faces a LOT of lawsuits geared around issues of biases and discrimination. Asking about BLM, for example, may be necessary to ensure alignment with core values or mission statements. I'm not going to hire you to be the VP of Planned Parenthood if you're against a woman's right to choose, for example. There are also affiliations that may seem political in nature, but are associated with professional development. Being active in the NEA, for example, is necessary if you are high level in arts. To some that might feel "political," but it's also about connections.

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 5:32PM UTC

I think you probably need to dig into the job description to get the answer to some of your questions, and it likely comes down to how much interaction you'll have with a board or alum in the case of the school. For example, I used to run education programs for a museum. At the time, I was not responsible for having to do any direct fundraising, but I received similar questions. They want to know how you will talk to people you are around. Wining, dining and schmoozing is likely part of the gig. Your takeaway may need to be to pick up these interests - participate in networking that allows you to gain some of those connections, read up on politics and hot button issues in the industry you're applying for. You may not be a sales person, but in high management roles you need to be in some ways.

surfnwrite

100

01/16/21 at 6:47PM UTC

Wow, I am really glad I'm not in the corporate world. Sometimes I envy my friends who make hundreds of thousands a year, but when I hear stories like this, I know I made the right choice even though I'll never be rich doing what I'm doing.

Anonymous

01/16/21 at 8:05PM UTC

Wow your recent interview experiences sound pretty painful. You mention in your post you graduated college from a state school? Why not apply for the same type of role at a state school? Also, I wanted to recommend maybe applying for a VP role in a different type of industry like utilities electric, gas, water companies, etc. Most have an engineering department. Also, you mentioned how liberal the interviewers were? Maybe do more research and if you are conservative apply for a VP role with a company who sides more with the conservatives. Better yet a company not openly involved with politics.

Anonymous

01/17/21 at 2:35AM UTC

What is your motivation for seeking a position at the VP level? Your post implies that you believe at least to some degree that a VP position is a natural next step in your career path. But why? Are you looking for higher pay and/or more respect and responsibility or challenges? Or something else? Perhaps if you articulate why you are attracted to these positions, you will understand what your next steps ought to be.

Titra Hamilton

Director at small business serving Federal Govt

01/17/21 at 9:27PM UTC

For many for profit entities, people at the VP level have mostly Business Development (BD) responsibility and are often hired specifically for their connections. Companies need for candidates at this level to use their connections/relationships to get into the room with decision-makers/influencers and space deals BEFORE they hit the streets. I bet that you are a fit for a VIP role; those corporate cultures of those companies were just not a fit for you. As others have suggested, include researching political affiliations/leanings of companies before applying.

Jim Alouidor

01/19/21 at 3:45PM UTC

The failure of others to see your value, doesn't mean that it not there and also isn't your responsibility. Keep your head up and ultimately you'll find your way to that management role. It may not for that particular company, but it'll be all that much more worth it being somewhere that values you as a whole.

Anonymous

01/21/21 at 2AM UTC

Anonymous, my heart goes out to you. I grew up without even the basic lessons of social interactions most people expect from each other, and rose in the organizations I worked for early on with "grit", obscenely long hours and by being fast on my feet. Then I joined a professional consulting firm, where I have been for > 20 years. The game changed, the rules changed, and the bar on behavior got raised - a lot. If it is any consolation, fast forward 7-8 years into the consulting world and our practice is interviewing those entitled grads - many of whom we laughed about after they left the floor because even though they had a good degree and were smart they had not DONE anything yet. There is no way we would put them in front of a client. But they still wanted the salaries we worked hard for as their entitled starting pay. Unfortunately, many companies will hire based on pedigree rather than ability. Ask yourself a question - do you REALLY want to work with these people? If you want recognition, you may need to work in a meritocracy. Then no matter what your title, you are valued based on ability and achievements (and possibly contributions to the team). The money comes if you are good at what you do, the title might or might not be there for you (situational). To quote Dr. Phil (before he became famous) - Be sure you know the difference between "fake it till you make it" and "behave your way to success". Looking long term, it may take a combination to gain success. After 30 years of trying, I have never made VP, for a variety of reasons. I made all the changes I know I needed to make, and have interviewed for the role many times, but I never got the offer. Here I am happily positioned one step below VP - 3 times - and 3 times my employer was bought by another company, and the "winners" bring in their own talent, even if your talent is better. Out of my control. So 15 years into my "career", I migrated into working for a large consulting firm. The advantage I have had in IT software consulting is that I finally got smart enough to maneuver to work on the right client project for me. Like colleges, and many companies, some clients want the schmoozers, and some will pay you to do "analysis paralysis" with them forever, and some actually want people to do the work. You have to understand who you are, what you want, where you fit, and what your company or client wants - the culture match has to work both ways for everyone to be happy. And as you rise in your profession's ranks, culture fit becomes more important with each position. Don't forget, you are interviewing them just as they are interviewing you. As a practical matter, you are also at a disadvantage working in the 2000's. In the 1980s and 1990s, large corporations engaged in a frenzy of mergers and buyouts, These were all rationalized as "good" for us, when in fact it resulted in organizations becoming flatter and flatter - less senior positions for everyone, no matter how good you are. Then in the 2000s, we added several technology tools that flattened organizations even more. In my industry, those VP jobs simply are not there anymore in quantity, and they are not coming back. I am not saying this to discourage you, just to help with a market orientation. Further, what part of the country you live in makes a difference too. Unfortunately, the general wisdom in one of my firms is that if you want a promotion, stick to the east or west coast, or a tech center, and stay out of the Midwest. And now of course, we have Covid-19, and the market is soft, so there is lots of good talent in competition. All that said, I do understand your anger and frustration, I still carry mine, but in private. And with the energy of that redirected. Yes, there really is a difference in attitudes and beliefs between people who have earned privilege and those who inherit by money or family. And just so you know, you may ALWAYS feel this difference. But what you do with that is important for your mental and physical health. And most important, do not let others who operate on "who do you know" erode your confidence in your own ability. There are two different things being measured here. (Again, do YOU really want to work with these people? Every day?) Maybe consider a different industry or strategy? Someone else suggested trying smaller companies, who always need good talent, and you may even find happiness with a good fit. I don't know if there is a way to do a private contact on this site, but if I can help one-on-one, even if just to vent, please let me know. For now, I need to get back to my own job hunt... :-)