Advice Needed

43 Comments

1. AnonymousMay 24,2024 at 12:18AM UTC

   After HR revealed that your application would complicate the previous candidate's green card process and that you wouldnt get it because its already filled, I think that pretty much answers your question. You really cant get any job without HR's approval anyway. If there was no way I could be considered a prospective candidate in case things fell through, I would wait for another opportunity or look for a different job. Best of luck.

2. AnonymousMay 24,2024 at 2:58AM UTC

   Apply

3. AnonymousMay 24,2024 at 8:49PM UTC

   It sounds like the job is not open. Maybe the company only posted it to cross their T's and dotted their I's for legal purposes and plan to have the manager "apply"? This sounds odd. If the position is posted, APPLY! You have just as much right to apply. Do not ask for permission. Do it.

4. AnonymousMay 25,2024 at 1:19AM UTC

   This isn’t an open opportunity. Applying won’t have the impact that you think it will.

   A labor test is to ensure that a qualified American isn’t available to do the job. If you are a citizen, I believe they are required to interview you as a qualified applicant. But, know this—it would be an impossibly high standard and she would have specialized skills above and beyond the regular applicant that you would not know about. They likely wrote the job description exactly to her skills.

   A close friend on a visa went thru this process. He spoke 4 languages (which he never advertised) that were needed to converse with the heads of offshore development groups in various countries. He also negotiated international contracts and lots of other things that were exec level. He had all kinds of secret skills that were necessary for the role and for the labor test. International workers often have many secret skills because they have to be truly exception for the employer to sponsor their visa and later.. their green card. (It can take 10-15 years to get a green card. There is a long line and folks check their status in the line sometimes daily.)

   IMHO, The optics of applying are not good. Management chose her for the job and the market test is really a formality as her specialized and secret skills will be hard to match.

   Can you apply? Sure. But, I think this is a read the room situation. I have no doubt that you have excellent skills but, wait your turn and work with your boss to create an opening for you. You’ll get much further working with her. I am concerned that applying would appear as though you don’t support managements choice.

   A better strategy would be to wish her well in this green card process and ask if there is anything that you can do to help. :)

5. AnonymousMay 25,2024 at 1:28PM UTC

   OP this is the answer. It will not have the optics you think it has. In fact, because you are so versed on the situation it’s very much not worth you showing your desperation. This is not an opportunity.

6. AnonymousMay 25,2024 at 9:01PM UTC

   Whew this is fantastic advice!!!!

   Please read the room. Not only are you not likely to get selected (along with other people who may apply) but you’re likely to create unnecessary tension between you and your friend, who also happens to be your manager.

7. Linsey DanielsonMay 30,2024 at 11:28AM UTC

   Thank you

8. Gem ThomasMay 26,2024 at 12:40PM UTC

   OP, please don’t apply, it will not be received favorably by your manager or the company.

   If you are ready to become a Director, apply externally and move on, that role is filled.

9. Lea Ann OvertonMay 27,2024 at 1:00PM UTC

   The above is good advice. Don't apply for this role again. It doesn't further your career. To expand, I would recommend looking and applying for jobs outside of your company. It feels like that could solve all your problems.

10. Linsey DanielsonMay 30,2024 at 11:28AM UTC

    Thank you

11. AnonymousMay 26,2024 at 12:32PM UTC

    i think it’s very clear what’s going on here because your Manager was transparent about it. I’m surprised after that you still felt the need to involve HR and are continuing to question it. What’s for you is for you and this job isn’t for you right now. It’s not even worth rattling cages, which is what you’ll do if you pursue it.

12. AnonymousMay 26,2024 at 12:48PM UTC

    This is a normal and required process for green card application. She’s right, it is legal and common. Don’t apply, it would only create problems for her and it won’t help you - there is no opportunity, it’s a formality.

13. Sarah BordersMay 26,2024 at 1:59PM UTC

    I get where you are coming from. I once applied and interviewed for a promotion to a role I didn’t want, where there was someone already acting in the role. I applied because I was told to apply by higher ups and by my colleague acting in the role, to show my interest in career advancement. But it was still a formality. Everyone knew who was getting the job.

    In this case, everyone knows who is getting the job because your manager already has the job, the posting is a formality, and it sounds like EVERYONE at your place of employment is telling you NOT to apply. I understand you may think applying shows interest in career advancement, but in this case, it shows an impulsiveness that hurts your manager and, by extension, your organization. The fact that you are asking for advice shows me that that is not you.

    You know the right thing to do here. If you have already applied, since it’s been a few days since you posed this question, I encourage you to withdraw your application.

14. AnonymousMay 26,2024 at 2:06PM UTC

    Sounds like you've made your interest known by talking to your manager and HR. You've been requested to not apply and told the position is filled. Why would you apply? I would take your application as an offense and as not being a team player or someone who listens to authority. I would not consider you for future positions if you applied in this situation. Plus why risk your relationship with your manager by complicating her green card process?

15. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 12:24PM UTC

    There is no way I would apply for that position. IMO, you would be shooting yourself in the foot. They have been completely honest with you. Your manager already knows you are interested in furthering your career. I think applying would have the opposite impact. I know if you did this to me as a hiring manager, I would never feel that I could trust you as an employee. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

16. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 7:20PM UTC

    I agree, however I have to consider the executive team that views things differently. Were they really supposed to advertise that it wasn't a real opening? If so, how is it truly a market test?

17. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 12:37PM UTC

    I see that you are very ambitious and you want that position. But I believe that this job post is a fake to facilitate your boss's green card and that's it. Applying for a position that is already filled doesn't make sense to me.

    Making a fake job post as a market test is common, although I don't know if this is legal in this case but honestly, it doesn't matter. It seems that HR and maybe everybody else but you is happy that your colleague got that position and they want to keep her. Maybe there are other people who don't know about it and who will apply but they WILL NOT get the position because it's already filled. If you would apply for it as an employee who has been informed this would show you in front of HR in a bad light. They would think like "What's wrong with this person?!".

18. Aruna Naomi InalsinghMay 27,2024 at 2:48PM UTC

    More than that — you might end up burning some bridges if you apply

19. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 4:20PM UTC

    If you value your job and want to keep it I wouldn’t apply. They made it very clear that it was a formality and you report to the person currently in that role. On a side note, it doesn’t seem like you are satisfied with your current role and it doesn’t sound like there is opportunity for growth with this company, so you should pursue other opportunities and stop waiting around for them to see your value.

20. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 4:36PM UTC

    They have given you absolute truth. Your manager and the HR person are correct as this is standard and customary for ANY company to do to facilitate the persons green card process. It is a requirement. If you did apply what would happen is that they would likely do a courtesy interview with you and then reject you. Why subject yourself to that? Also in terms of your longevity at the company it would also show that you don't respect the decision that has already been made to hire your current manager into the role, which she earned and deserves by their selecting her as qualified over you. Let it go, and instead it would be better to do one of 2 things. 1- test the waters for a similar role elsewhere in the leadership position that you missed out on. If things go well move on. 2- Ask for HR's help in guiding your career towards the same role in another department in the company and to also provide real feedback on where you fell short the first time through. Use this to hold your head high and move toward that when there is not a VISA situation that they are processing.

    Please take my feedback seriously if you value your role there as I have worked in VISA work for close to 30 years and have dealt with this same situation with many different outcomes.

21. LORI-ANN BURLINGAMEMay 27,2024 at 9:12PM UTC

    For your own information, you may want to reach out to an attorney. Your local Legal Aid Society or law school may have a Law Clinic. Where you can get legal advice at little or no cost to you. In addition, you may want to check with your local area Bar Association.

    It is my understanding, as a former labor relations specialist, that a Work Visa was required to work in the United States. I have worked with many expatriates and they each had one. However, it appears that your manager is seeking permanent residency in the United States.

    Seeking advice from an attorney would be a wise move.

22. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 11:51PM UTC

    I'm not sure I see why OP should seek legal advice. Unless you are stating from an employment law perspective rather than the immigration piece.

23. Linsey DanielsonMay 30,2024 at 11:21AM UTC

    Good advice!

24. Agustin LealMay 27,2024 at 10:13PM UTC

    i think you must apply for that position. The green card is given to foreign people who have been in a process to get that green card.. which is to have permission to live and work in the United States legally. However, I do not think that position will help your boss to speed to get the green card. To apply to the Director position is like every thing else, if you qualified, you get it. That’s all.

25. AnonymousMay 27,2024 at 11:49PM UTC

    By you applying, and fully qualified for the role, it will bring the green card process to a halt to fully vet you and determine whether you meet the established qualifications (the minimal qualifications). Or at least this is how it should go. The employer needs to show that they have made every possible effort to find a citizen that is fully qualified before they can proceed with the green card case for your manager.

26. Milena MardahayMay 28,2024 at 12:25PM UTC

    It's possible your manager's visa must be expiring and they need to get her legalized before that happens.

27. Amy Miller, Psy.D. - Career CoachMay 28,2024 at 1:06PM UTC

    I agree with those saying they are being honest with you and that you should respect their process. However, I think you should ALSO be very honest with them, including your boss and anyone else relevant. Not to take too much time but just saying something like, "Just so you know, if this was anything other than a green card job-post, I would not miss the chance to apply. Don't mistake my silence as a reflection of my lack of interest, just simply respect I am showing for your process and unique situation."

    This type of communication gives you a chance to take an awkward/annoying moment in your work and turn it into a chance to show them that you are reliable, considerate, and flexible.

28. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 7:09PM UTC

    Absolutely what I had decided was the best path. Thanks!

29. Westley CroomsMay 28,2024 at 1:08PM UTC

    Apply without worry

30. Dave ObertingMay 28,2024 at 1:14PM UTC

    You're not getting the job, so don't complicate things for everybody. If you've hit a glass ceiling, it's time to look for new opportunities outside the company.

31. Joy ViggianiMay 28,2024 at 1:36PM UTC

    I think you should let it be as unfair as it is.

32. Rosa E HearnMay 28,2024 at 1:39PM UTC

    This is a common practice. I wouldn’t complicate things. They are not replacing her.

33. WandaMay 28,2024 at 1:50PM UTC

    I'll admit I have never heard of an employer reposting a position that's already filled only to do so to aid the current holder in securing a green card. But doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I'm with everyone else, resist applying to position. It seems that the company has settled on who they want for the position and are merely going through the "motions" to make sure that the person's legal status is set.

34. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 3:16PM UTC

    If what I believe is happening is happening, they are required to post the position (even though it is filled) and conduct interviews with any qualified candidates. They are required to document all applicants, interviews, and reasons why those people were not deemed to be qualified to do the job. Your company has to prove to the US Citizenship & Immigration Service that there are no qualified and available US workers to fill the position, so they need to hire a non-citizen/non-permanent resident.

    This is where it gets tricky for someone in your position. Your manager is obviously qualified for the job and they do not want to replace her, so they will come up with a reason why you are not qualified for the position in order to keep her in the role.

    You need to decide how "worth it" this is to you and if it's the hill you want to die on, so to speak. Yes, it shows continued interest, but it may also come across poorly to the powers that be and may ultimately cause you problems in your current role. They may consider you to be a hostile employee and start looking for ways/reasons to terminate you.

    All of this is NOT ok, but it is common. Legally, if you interview for the role and are fully qualified for the role, they would have to hire you into the role because there is a willing, able, qualified US candidate. Realistically, that isn't going to happen, I'm sorry to say.

    Best of luck to you!

35. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 5:12PM UTC

    it might be legal, but it's not okay in how you land. You are being "manipulated" in a weird kind of way, in order that your manager keeps her job. It's not your responsibility to worry about this "process", her Green Card, or anything else. If the job is a position you want, then APPLY. Operate honestly and at the surface in ALL of your interactions. Do not worry about how you might be PERCEIVED. You are allowed by desire and go for this job, whether it's all just fictitious or not. I think by applying, you are aligning your values with who YOU ARE and your goals-- as it should be. Let this all play out and you'll know more about whether you even want to stay with this employer over time. Good luck. Remember: Align yourself with your own values.

36. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 7:07PM UTC

    Thanks for all that responded. I read more about the green card process and I understand their process. It is legal and they do not have to hire a qualified US citizen, nor do they intend to. It would only complicate their process. Fair enough. However, we have an executive team that would certainly point out my lack of application and consider it disinterest. Now that I understand more the process I will not apply, however I am sending email to HR (as someone else suggested) to let them know if this was a legitimate posting, and not a market test, I would certainly be applying.

37. AnonymousMay 28,2024 at 7:14PM UTC

    Maybe so but at my company which is french owned, they clearly give preference to those with french nationality over those that are US citizens and more qualified. Just because you are not the hiring manager does not mean you don't see those occurrences.

38. Sabrina AvansMay 29,2024 at 12:55PM UTC

    Apply. You are well qualified for the position.

39. AnonymousMay 29,2024 at 4:22PM UTC

    I think you need to apply. At the end of the day, you are responsible for your own journey. People come and go. You would feel like you missed out if your former coworker left the company and the role was filled by someone else because you didn't apply.

40. Farah BajwaMay 29,2024 at 7:35PM UTC

    I'm not surprised at this situation but its also not an easy question to answer. It all depends on what you're willing to tolerate. Whether you decide to apply or not apply, please make sure you are ready to work the outcome. If applying will cause backlash such as passive aggressiveness towards you or resentment that you didn't play ball, maybe rather than applying internally its time to look externally? On the flip side, if letting this go will make you feel you missed an opportunity, maybe again its time to look externally.

41. AnonymousMay 30,2024 at 11:23AM UTC

    I completely agree that you can never know someone else’s qualifications completely.

42. JDJune 1,2024 at 7:49AM UTC

    Both HR and your manager have told you they are not going to hire you for the position. Are they the ones making the decision?

    if they are I’m not sure what you’re intending to prove by applying.

    youre already made it clear to HR that you’re interested in the position. Again, what are you hoping to accomplish beyond that?

43. Denise LevineJune 5,2024 at 10:12PM UTC

    What they are doing is blatantly illegal. Green cards are issued for jobs where no American is qualified to do it. Perhaps it is common practice but there is a reason the rule exists. This person is, essentially, taking a job away from an American.

    Shady stuff there. What other shortcuts do they use? Maybe this is a red flag and you need to think about your future.