My start-up sounded like a dream job… but during the interview process the founders were not honest with me about how they ran the business, and after a few months of gaslighting they fired me when I would not play along.

47 Comments

1. Joanne RosenJanuary 15,2022 at 10:17PM UTC

   I'm Canadian so don't know a lot about US labor laws. However, in Canada, all that would be SO illegal. I don't think Canada even allows unpaid internships.

   Firing you would also be a reason to file a grievance against them. You bring the documents and let them suffer.

   I hope they fail in their business, to be honest.

2. AnonymousJanuary 16,2022 at 10:56PM UTC

   yes and YES!!

3. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 2:27PM UTC

   The US allows unpaid internships, but only if set up in a specific way. From what the OP had said, my gut tells me that are not set up legally. They are attempting to build their business with what amounts to indentured servants. I wonder how many will be “let go” just prior to the time they are to receive their stock options. They deserve to fail.

4. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 8:48PM UTC

   You are absolutely correct.
   Wondering what will happen to them all in a few months when they want their stock options paid out & find out they will need to work for another 6 months unpaid to get anything (and can be let go before then). The co-founders will most likely make the interns feel it’s their fault for ‘not reading their contract correctly’ or something. Interns are inexperienced and may buy the story, especially given the gaslighting. Totally agree with your thoughts.

5. Joan Williams, Senior Talent Acquisition SpecialistJanuary 16,2022 at 12:14AM UTC

   I would just say "the position (or company?) turned out to not be what had been presented during interviews". You could also say something along the lines of "I had some ethical concerns I'd rather not go into" - I never fault someone for leaving over ethical issues. That's a plus in my book and more of a reason to hire them.

   And then, unless it says you can't in your agreement with your former company, if you have the chance, recruit those interns out to your hopefully much better new company.

6. AnonymousJanuary 16,2022 at 10:54PM UTC

   Thank you - this is such great advice!!

7. Joan Williams, Senior Talent Acquisition SpecialistJanuary 17,2022 at 1:01AM UTC

   GOOD LUCK!

   Everything happens for a reason. Trust.

8. AnonymousJanuary 16,2022 at 10:54PM UTC

   Thank you for sharing your story!
   ‘Holding on to a fantasy’ is exactly right. Part of me is so happy to be done with the whole dysfunctional mess that made every day so hard, and part of me is feeling a lot of shame for failing… not seeing the issues earlier, not somehow making it work, and overall feeling ashamed and angry at letting myself be taken advantage of (and helping them take advantage of others by hiring new people on). Good on you for staying true to your values!!

9. Ladyboss737918January 17,2022 at 1:29PM UTC

   I ask that question a lot in interviews - why did you leave or why are you looking for a change. We also ask candidates to describe their ideal relationship with supervisors, peers, and junior employees. It’s in those conversations where we can tell if someone didn’t have great relationships where they are coming from, even though they are desperately trying to find positive ways to spin in. (Because, like you, they are trying to be professional.)

   I wish our interview culture allowed for a little more frankness, we ask our questions to make sure we are going to be a good fit. Culture fit is the number one thing I look for since most people can adjust easily to some responsibility changes that evolve, but it’s much harder to adjust to a culture that isn’t you.

   Here are some ways potential employees have responded to my question about leaving their other company:

   -We thought our values aligned, but they didn’t. Can you tell me more about your values?

   -what was presented in the interview was not the reality of the position. (This will lead me to ask if there is anything I can clarify about our position to help us both with the decision.)

   -The leadership style wasn’t the best fit for me. (I will ask what type of leader the candidate works best with.)

   -I’m really looking for a mentor in my field and that wasn’t available at my prior company.

   -We grew rapidly and we evolved as we grew, the direction the company was going in didn’t align with my vision for my career growth.

   Or some combination of the above. If an interviewer asks that question - why did you / are you leaving? But doesn’t give you space to ask questions, I would red flag that. The only time I don’t ask that question (and I usually still ask it just in case) is when there is very little that could be said to make me think we are a good match to move forward.

   Hope some of those ideas for responses help!

10. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 1:32PM UTC

    If you are so worried about a "culture fit and that's the only main criteria you have, you are missing out on so many amazing candidates and a chance to change that culture.
    When making sure that everybody is a "cultural fit" what a horrible place to work.

11. Michelle HoffmanJanuary 17,2022 at 1:44PM UTC

    There is a difference between cultural fit and hiring a mini me. I don't want to hire someone just like me. I want someone who has strengths that are my weaknesses or shortcomings. When I am interviewing - I will take the job description and break it down to non negotiable skills - they must come to the table with them (excel skills including basic or advance formulas, SQL skills if that job is heavily involved in SQL queries). Then I have skills that are good to have but they are something I can teach. Then there are the pie in the sky skills that would help put the candidate over the top.

12. Michelle HoffmanJanuary 17,2022 at 1:54PM UTC

    I accidently clicked on post without completing my statement. Cultural fit is a different animal. I don't want unethical people on my team. I want people who will help build up the team not tear it down. I had someone I interviewed and she kept asking about her break time and if that was her time or did she have to give that up. She wanted to know her exact times of breaks. This was a salary position and it was fluid. The only requirement I had was you could not take you lunch hour the last hour of everyday because our headquarters was on the West Coast. 4pm our time was 1 pm there time. I deemed her not a good fit because of her need to be told when she could take breaks and lunch also others had equal or more skills. Our culture was doers and thinkers. She would have driven everyone up the wall before the first week was out.

13. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 3:15PM UTC

    That’s different. She was clearly expressing what was important to her so you did the right thing. That falls under work ethics more than culture fit.

14. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 3:13PM UTC

    It’s horrible to say that isn’t it.? Talk about a “lost” culture that they convinced themselves is the norm. Absolutely embarrassing to use those terms for a new hire and unprofessional. If your not the culture fit it’s because you outshine the current culture. Period!

15. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 10:53PM UTC

    Love this!! Thank you!!

16. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 11:03PM UTC

    There is so much great advice here - thank you and I have captured the responses for my interview practice sessions!! Incredibly helpful and thank you.

17. Julie AndrewsJanuary 17,2022 at 1:35PM UTC

    It doesn’t look bad. You’re mired in the situation and in short time, you’ll see more clearly it doesn’t look bad at all. It actually makes you appear the standout that you are. Experienced this dysfunction and was also let go and let me tell you, they did me the biggest favor of my career. The toll of that kind of existence is ridiculous. Say whatever you want to say-your ethics speak volumes. And yes, hire the interns away if contractually you aren’t bound otherwise. You’re going to do just fine.

18. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 11:09PM UTC

    THANK YOU for the advice and affirmation - I got a little teary when I read it. Did not realize how much I had internalized all the negativity I was being fed, on top of my own feelings of ‘failure’- you are totally right about the toll the experience took every day. Totally not worth it and I’m seeing that more every day.

19. Julie AndrewsJanuary 18,2022 at 8:24PM UTC

    I’m so glad you see the theme in these comments. You did the right thing-no matter who created the ultimate exit-and you will continue to. Like I tell my kids-take the high road. It’s never crowded. (And these days, it’s damn near empty!-I don’t tell them that :))

20. M. GirlJanuary 17,2022 at 2:12PM UTC

    So this is an unspoken truth unless somehow you hear it along the grape vine.... start ups are basically black and white (I am generalizing, this certainly does not apply to all), but start-ups have a nasty reputation of using and exploiting workers for labor, time and sometimes even pay. This is not necessarily because they are a bad company, but more due to the fact they are within the 1st 5 to 10 years of being in business. It makes them more vulnerable, more cautious, and a lot of the founders presume the people who want to work there want to be a part of ground up and are willing to grind into the business like they are.

    How does this fit into you? By explaining to your new possible employment opportunities that while you greatly enjoyed the business, you found it was still in its growing pains. The job shifted as it's new and hasn't been ironed ourt yet.

    I don't know if this is the industry standard anymore however it is one that I abide by - you should never bad talk your previous employer because supposedly supposedly it makes you look like you're not hirable and you may have baggage. Is this true? I'm not sure. This is what it used to be and something I go by. For the most part im most States and most companies will not ask for references about how you did the job or anything other than times you worked there because there's been employees who have sued for inflammatory remarks. That being said, it helps paint a professional picture.

    I also think it's fair to say that if you are being honest and the position doesn't hire you that's OK too. It means it wasn't a good fit and you were immediately able to read that out because this was your experience and a good employer should not only hear that but see your worth in capability and realize one experience does not equate to the other.

    The other important note is that we are in the great resignation as economists put it. This means it's an employee market so if a company lost you because your values did not align with theirs (normal and perfectly ok), many employers will not only pay attention, but also may find it helpful on how to retain you.

    The last bit of advice I can give you is that whatever you decide as long as you are confident, professional, and highlight that it had nothing to do with being a bad employee or having bad character nothing should be an issue for you.

    Good luck and at the end of the day I think you should be very proud you stuck to your values.

21. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 11:00PM UTC

    Very powerful points and perspective - thank you!! I may use “The job shifted as it's new and hasn't been ironed out yet” verbatim. Your last points about approaching it all with confidence is so true - I will be spending a lot of time building my confidence back up because you are totally right: this will only impact my future prospects if I let it and there is no reason to do that. Thank you!!

22. M. GirlJanuary 18,2022 at 7:54PM UTC

    Thank you - that was very sweet.
    And one thing I think you and every employee including myself needs to remember: just bc we did a shit job at one place doesn't mean we can't do well. And it's better to have values and boundaries we know and feel good about.. Yes, sometimes it'll hurt the path you're on bc a company won't see you as the fit it wants... but it also means you got spared. Why go through the hiring process only to find you hate it? So it's good to remind yourself that sometimes it's not a right fit is bc you're not just a machine part. You're a thinking, breathing, innovative human who comes with their own needs. Those can include anything from social to team work to leadership to mentoring to type of work you want to do. It's also fair to ask yourself, "did this company give me what I need to thrive? Did this company listen to me?" And make no mistake, I do agree you need to be careful not to jump the gun and instill your own ideas and values unless you were specifically brought in to offer such and itnwas discussed in your interview. But ideas are different than values. If your values are just having character, integrity, accountability, honesty and caring about your coworkers/employees - then you didn't do anything wrong. You followed a code of ethics that we are taught. Some companies don't follow that (can anyone say Enron?) and some employees thrive in these conditions. Others can't and either leave or whistle blow. I am not going to debate or say whats better and why, but the only one who has to answer for their actions at the end of the day is you. So if you know that in 10 years that this was a great decision that makes you feel good about it - then it was the right one for you. And you never have to justify that to anyone.

23. Ashley ThornburghJanuary 17,2022 at 2:12PM UTC

    I've been where you are!

    I worked for a start-up a few years ago for a brief stint (was let go abruptly and I'm pretty sure it's because I saw some inappropriate charges on the company card during one of the owners' trips to Bangkok...). When asked about my time in that role in interviews I mentioned that Startups are a very unique business style and can provide good experience. I mentioned that the largest issue with these types of 'companies' is funding, and I believed I was let go because of financial issues not my performance.

    Honestly, it's never hindered me and people who've worked in startups get it, and people who haven't don't seem to question it.

    I would love to hear about startups that are morally sound and successful because my experience really tainted my views.

24. Brenda CrawshawJanuary 17,2022 at 2:27PM UTC

    Been there, had to do that. What I did was be completely honest without giving any details. I explained that once I was hired, I discovered that they were conducting business that was not in alignment with my values and that I felt would eventually reflect bad on me and so I decided that parting company earlier was better for my future prospects. That was nuanced enough to make all but one - more in a sec - person raise their eyebrows at the previous employer and the place that hired me told me that was a major factor in their deciding I was their preference. The person who wasn't fazed turned out to be a total scumbag who lost his medical license three months later. So there's that lol.

    Be true to yourself. The truth always comes out. And the interviewers for whom your decision is not a positive factor aren't ones you will want to work with so it's a win-win.

    And good for you for sticking up for the naive and inexperienced!

25. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 2:35PM UTC

    Use exactly what they said to you. It was not a "Cultural fit".

26. GirlBossanova934974January 17,2022 at 2:41PM UTC

    Frankly, it's time to call it as it is here. And I wouldn't try to pin this one on startups. Unfortunately in the last several years, there has a general deterioration of ethics and standards. That has been coupled with the promotion of many who received little or no training in management or supervision or ownership. So we get a "Wild Wild West" of corporate conduct. There is NO need to bad-mouth this outfit described here. They themselves have done their own dirty work. Let the facts speak for themselves. Nickel and dime stuff too. Not paying interns and then coming with phony option scheme. Not allowing a manager to hire their own staff. Coming with this "cultural fit" nonsense. I would have 3 bullet points drawn out for the next employer and let them be the judge. EXPERIENCED managers can see this. EXPERIENCED managers also know you don't step over the line with this garbage especially today when former and current employees can nail you on Glassdoor and other company review websites. "Dumpster fire" management teams like this often fail in the first few years and this is why.

27. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 3:01PM UTC

    Agree.

28. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 3:09PM UTC

    I have been saying this for years now. “Wild Wild West” mentality. It is not okay to operate any business in this manner. Thank you for sharing. I thought I was alone in this. It is out of control. I came from cali then went to Vegas and that’s how everything is operated. Doesn’t go over well with employees who are there to be Professional.

29. GirlBossanova934974January 17,2022 at 10:24PM UTC

    As I have learned over the last 32 years, there's a huge reason why companies shouldn't operate or allow company managers to operate in the "Wild Wild West" mentality of anything goes. The number one reason? Sooner or later, it all comes back to bite the company in the backside. Especially today when a handful of angry employees can write negative reviews about your business on a half a dozen websites which people are going to read. The # 1 here is ROOT OUT and get rid of managers who bang up against the ethical ceiling. 1 warning and then they're gone the same day. When others see there is no tolerance for bending the rules or breaking the rules, the bad apples usually pack their bags fairly quickly.

30. AnonymousJanuary 18,2022 at 7:23PM UTC

    This is exactly what needs to happen. It took a toll on me mentally and I internalized it all as me as a failure with nothing to provide to employers when I know that's absolutely not true. How do we get to the point of evolving to a healthy work life? It seems the one's who are submissive stand with bad management, so you look like the subordinate one even though you are only trying to fight for basic rights as an employee and standing up for yourself when others are coming negatively against you. It feels like a lose lose situation.

31. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 2:44PM UTC

    I would tell prospective employers that the company was a start up and you realized that it was not a good fit for you.

32. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 3:08PM UTC

    I relate to this. I’m seeing frustration, a thwarted intention and feelings of being misled. I had something like this happen to me and I had to re-evaluate the role of a job in my life. Yes, I am working, but my new mantra is: I don’t let it “rock my core” and I don’t spend precious time spiraling into blaming myself, or worse—believing that I deserve it.

    Sometimes we focus on our jobs because it's the thing that is pulling our gaze. But if we lift our gaze out to the horizon. We can see that the job is one way to live a fulfilled life. Yes we need our jobs and want to be fulfilled by them but when we start taking the actions of others to the point where it leaves us deeply upset, it’s time to re-evaluate. There are a lot of ways to live fully. That’s a long way of saying, my job isn’t in the #1

33. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 10:43PM UTC

    Wow this is amazing- thank you! Some food for thought here - I relate to what you are saying, and it truly strikes a chord. I have always over-committed to my work, and absolutely let failures/ challenges ‘rock my core’ in a way that disrupts my mental well-being (lots of sleepless nights recently!) Love the reminder to “lift my gaze to the horizon” and stay connected with the bigger picture - this is going on a Post-it on my wall for further contemplation. Beautifully stated!!

34. AnonymousJanuary 18,2022 at 8:52PM UTC

    Good, I’m glad my experience is helpful. ;)

    I can also offer that many folks look at a company mission and connect to it, but rarely does it translate to the operations of the culture. I’m wary of companies that tout the

    “purposeful mission marketing.” I changed my mindset lately. I asked myself, what if my sense of purpose is derived from the way I show up for the people around me.

    I network and mentor people who seek me out and give them my goddamn best. :)

    I’ve felt more freedom now that I don’t rely on my job to be everything and in all ways.

    Feel free to post your info and I’ll reach out if you’d like to chat further.

35. Kristie WhiteJanuary 17,2022 at 4:34PM UTC

    Basically, the management team did the right thing. If they had any structure in place that said the first six months were probationary (a very standard policy), they were well within their rights to terminate you in that timeframe. You weren't a cultural fit with their style of negativity, gaslighting and morally questionable management behavior. And as a start-up, they were spending cash on you while you were developing into a whistleblower. So they had to protect themselves and reduce the risk. Your explanation to any prospective employer is exactly that - "Management at the start-up and I didn't agree on what was acceptable behavior within a start-up. And though I realized this and was in the process of transition, their cashflow forced the issue."

36. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 10:30PM UTC

    Some great points and perspectives here, and love the talking points - thank you!

37. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 5:59PM UTC

    I understand how you feel about unpaid internships - I feel the same way - but I don't understand why you decided to lay down your laws, your values, your standards, before you were even established in your role. It is too easy to see your employers' points of view, however poor their employment practices might be; you were a troublemaker, they had to go to the time and effort of working around you and they will be glad you're gone. Have you changed their view for the better? Probably not at all.

    On the whole, we need to earn respect and influence, and if we do not respect the people we're working for enough to earn respect and gain influence, we need to move on. You went in very hard, from a very weak position, and you and those you tried to protect were burned. Still, your story as far as your career timeline goes is simple; start-ups are absolutely known for hiring errors, so just say that the role wasn't the one you'd be promised and move on. Next time, work for the right people, build up trust, gain respect and pick your battles more wisely. Every organisation has a culture and there are increasing numbers of organisations out there that live and breathe fairness in their cultures, so find one and prosper.

38. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 10:12PM UTC

    It’s funny, at the beginning I legitimately thought what they were doing was unintentional.

    I saw that they used a lot of misleading jargon when discussing the stock options, and the wording in the contract was confusing. I know that people can get so deep in using industry jargon that they forget that the rest of the world has no idea what they are talking about. So when I brought this up with the cofounders the first time, I positioned my feedback as ‘this language/ approach is something that could be perceived in a certain way, and we should fix it as (this industry) is pretty small and it could hurt our reputation and recruiting efforts if it looks like we’re misleading candidates; especially since you’re asking me to use my personal network to recruit, it’s a risk for both of us’ - and they said they saw my point.

    But, looking back, this is when the hostility started. Would have preferred at any time for them to just say (especially as I was in a leadership position): ‘we’re in a growing stage right now and this is what we feel we have to do’ (or whatever their reasoning would have been) - but they never once communicated with me directly on the issue. Just started working around me and commenced the gas-lighting. So I’m not sure if I picked the battle, so much as kind of fell into it!

    That said, I would still have 100% fought the battle as the reputational risk is real, and also these practices are not something I would ever want to be a part of. In fact, I would never have taken the job if they had told me I could only hire interns, even if we were paying them! In my view, if a business does not want troublemakers calling them out on shady business practices, the business should hire people aligned with that approach - not spring it on them after they were hired and then expect them to just go along - but I guess it works often enough that they keep doing it?

    Definitely will be taking your advice on looking harder for the right people, and partnering with companies known for their fairness! Thank you for the advice and perspective!

39. Heather BinghamFebruary 11,2022 at 5:09PM UTC

    One or two questions to ask when you're interviewed can help you to find somewhere better. The biggest thing I've picked up from your response here is that they didn't actually say anything, but just went right around you. I've worked in awful places where they did the same. When you get the opportunity to ask questions, try to find out how they resolve conflicting opinions. One way you can do this, without raising any red flags, is to ask how people work together reach agreement. A good organisation will talk about consultation, discussion, compromise - all those good things. A bad organisation will either talk about how their hierarchy works or, even worse, they will not understand the question! If you feel comfortable enough, you can ask how conflict is resolved, but if you're not sure how the question will be received, keep it positive and ask about how people work together to settle on a path and share the work.

40. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 6:27PM UTC

    As a recruiter in the tech industry, i've heard tons of reason why people leave/were fired / made redundant but it's the ones that are spilling too much details that put off the interviewer.

    I would suggest not going too much into the details of why you left/let go. Keep it high level. You could just say as it is - the company's values were not aligned with yours, some even unethical and decided to part ways, and now on the look out for opportunities that will be more aligned to your values/environment where you can thrive.

    If the interviewer prompts for more info, give an example like not being allowed to hire competent people and hire unpaid interns instead and bring it back to you wanting to produce the best outcomes as required for your role but not being provided the resources to be set up for success, despite trying to communicate this professionally to the team.

    Hope that helps!

41. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 8:25PM UTC

    This is great advice thank you! Yes it makes sense that diving into the details in interviews trying to explain myself will raise flags (I know it would for me!), love the approach of keeping it honest but high level. Will have to practice the answer so it stays neutral.

42. Audrey KirschJanuary 17,2022 at 6:42PM UTC

    I don't think with their ethics you would have been kept even if you had gone along with duping the interns. They wanted a free work force and once you provided that, you were let go. Maybe sooner than they had planned but seems like that was their intention. If they were duping the interns, it just makes sense that they were duping you as well. Just say in future interviews that the job you thought you were hired for turned out to be something far different and you decided you didn't like the direction it was going. Many startups are like that. They are working out how they want to operate and it takes a while to form a good business practice. This company has a way to go so you're better off not being there.

43. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 8:22PM UTC

    I was thinking the same - ‘bait and switch’ seems to be their operating model. And also, simply saying the role was different than expected is a great way to position the situation in interviews - thank you!!

44. Leader135412January 17,2022 at 6:52PM UTC

    I would have sent a detailed letter of names and the events to the Department of Labor.

45. AnonymousJanuary 17,2022 at 8:59PM UTC

    OMG your company sounds like where I work....except we are newly public (2020) and it's extremely toxic. I also was hired for a role that was completely changed. It's a terrible environment where one day you're praised and your colleagues are beaten, and then the next day it's reversed.

    I'm looking for work and I've decided that I'm going to say that my role changed substantially and the new role doesn't fully utilize my skill set. Hope that helps a bit. Good luck!

46. BrittanyJanuary 19,2022 at 1:02AM UTC

    I was in a similar boat with a startup and was fired for reporting ethical concerns. The way I got my next job was to keep them on my resume and tell recruiters they could verify employment with my current employer (illegal in most states without permission).

    The next time you do a job switch it will come up in employment verification. If I'm asked about it, I say that the company was facing financial issues as a startup and leave it at that. Most recruiters assume it was a layoff. In your case, finances are making them rip off employees.

47. AnonymousFebruary 12,2022 at 8:28PM UTC

    Everyone has a bottom line, and if their values (or lack thereof) cross that threshold for you, then it's not worth your reputation to continue there. It takes years to build your reputation and seconds to lose it.

    It's unfortunate, but I had the same happen with my former employer. As soon as I pointed out their unethical decisions with proof, my position was suddenly "no longer needed" because they had nothing else to criticize me on, other than my whistleblowing. But who in their right minds would say they let someone go because they were trying to be ethical?

    As Michelle Obama says, "When they go low, we go high". Keep your bottom line. You'll find a place where they will appreciate that you DO have a bottom line.