Salary-shamed by my manager, any advice?

Anonymous

April 24,2023 at 2:22PM UTC

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Salary-shamed by my manager, any advice?

I have been working as a senior manager for the last decade and was fortunate enough to be compensated relatively well in big corporations.

At my current company I have a good work-life balance but no room to grow and no support for promotion.

After Covid, I've lost a team member and split their duties with another associate. I've been there 7 years, I had only 2 raises in 3% range. (Company is known for being very stingy with raises and promos)

When I brought this up with my manager, I was salary-shamed and was told I had the highest salary within my peers, which she said she just found out about it. I was very offended that this was brought up after 7 years with the company being a high performing manager. so I have 2 questions,

1-How to respond for being called out for my salary?

2- What's the best narrative when looking to move on to a director job, without a previous director title but paid at that level?

I have 20yrs of exp. My compensation is now director / AVP level from what I see from other job postings. I have a hard time navigating the job landscape since I have high salary low title. I fear as the time passes I will have a harder time moving up and be stuck as a middle manager.

If you read this far, I thank you VERY much. I apologize if this seems very first world problem-y. I would love an outside perspective on this.

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AnonymousApril 24,2023 at 2:56PM UTC
Remember, you title is simply what they call it. What would other industries/companies call your title? If that makes a difference that is what you put on your resume. I've been in that situation where I was a marketing "assistant" and my counterpart in our other division had the title of marketing coordinator/manager. We did the exact same job and reported to the same business manager. I dropped that assistant part b/c it doesn't help me on my resume and didn't accurately reflect what I did.
Also, in response to the manager who tried to salary shame you. I would state that I earned that salary and that what is paid to others is not my concern or issue. Maybe the others are being underpaid? State your qualifications/what you do/ what successes you had. I wonder if she/he would have said that if you were a male. I think not. He/she is not giving you a "gift". You are doing high quality work and deserve to be compensated a decent rate for that.
AnonymousApril 24,2023 at 3:04PM UTC
thank you for the kind reply. it's exactly what I told her, that I feel bad for my peers who were underpaid for their work. As for the gender part, we are 90% female industry, except most of the leadership is male. so my boss and peers are also female but I agree it would be harder for them to treat male coworkers the same way. I know women settle for less. When I told a friend who was interviewing with my company how much should be asking, she said she was happy with what they offered her. Even though I told her what I was making! WHYYYYY women do this??
AnonymousApril 25,2023 at 5:45AM UTC
Meet with an executive coach or someone who practices coaching on the director path. Being called out for your salary is unethical if HR was not involved in that conversation. A negative remark I deign disrespectful for such an employee with a high investment from the business. The cost of replacing a tenured employee is much higher. Your intention to progress into a director role, have you initiated or do you maintain a relationship with your boss' boss? Try asking for a private cup of coffee or a Zoom catch up session to see if you can establish a thought with that path. You'll have to come prepared but be prepared for the feedback - as you want to know what makes a director someone they want to hire? Good luck!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:46PM UTC
Sorry, this is not true in all cases. HR will set pay scales for job families and pay grades and comp packages. However, depending on the organization, it’s up to the department head and his or her budget how it is applied in his or her department. Some things are corporate wide and some will have department discretion. I have had these conversations before, and it was with department leadership; HR came in once options within the department were vetted. Also, as you progress and grow more senior in your career, unless you have a clear succession plan within your org, if you want to advance in your career, the expectation would be for you to leave and grow. I have seen more the push to retain highly skilled, experienced, and niche or specialized contributors who would be extremely difficult to replace with these tactics than most leaders.
Dcre1977April 25,2023 at 12:47PM UTC
Titles are usually relative to the company size rather than your job description. A manager at one company could be doing what a senior director foes at another company. Focus on your skills rather than your exact title.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:31PM UTC
I have found this to be two sided. Recently changed jobs from a manager at a larger corporation to a director at a smaller company. The jobs are not too different. I have seen that the title really does actually mean something at least getting your foot in the door or seeing other opportunities.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 12:14PM UTC
I experienced the same issue - and my manager went so far as to say I would never find another position making as much as I did at this company. I proved him wrong, and found a more challenging, exciting position not only increasing my salary, but also a much more lucrative bonus package. And received a 5% increase in only 9 months.
Look elsewhere - find someone who values you for what you contribute to the organization.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:03PM UTC
The best time to find a new job is when you already have one.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 12:26PM UTC
A few thoughts...
First, the salaries of your peers have nothing to do with you and your performance. "With all due respect, I see my contributions as standing on their own and not a point of comparison to the work of others. I'd like to discuss what I've accomplished and how that should be compensated based on industry norms." Make sure you've done your homework. Payscale.com has always been more realistic than salary.com depending on where you live in my experience. Salary.com tends to be more about what's happening with compensation on the coasts.
Next, be aware that 3% is usually the only increase that anyone gets and it's to account for the cost of living (i.e., inflation). A lot of large companies do that and feel like it keeps pace with the industry they're in. It never does, but that's the story and they are sticking to it. As that's the case, and it isn't clear from what you've written above if you are doing this, but you can't/shouldn't come to them and say, "I have more work now since COVID and I've only had two increases..." That's a bad idea because those increases weren't raises based on performance. There's a difference. Second, it doesn't matter how long you've been in your seat or what your title is. What have you DONE? You need to come with accomplishments that meet and exceed the expectations set in your balanced scorecard or other measurements. You need data to show them what you have done and what you are worth.
Finally, just to be blunt (but kind, because I want you to move up), because I've been there, you are already stuck in middle management. If you want to be at a VP level, you are likely to need to leave and go somewhere else. Seven years is a long time to occupy that same chair and they've already had enough time to see you only in that light.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 12:32PM UTC
I’d simply move on, accurately reflect your responsibilities on your resume and seek out director-AVP level roles if that’s the level you’re seeking. Titles are relative to each company. I was a director and moved into a manager role with a new company with a 20% increase in salary so I wouldn’t put too much worry into someone questioning your capability based on title alone.
in regard to your supervisor, it’s highly unprofessional and quite frankly not your problem you advocated and negotiated on your own behalf. Clearly your HR benchmarking process allowed for it, and if not that’s on the company not you.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 12:45PM UTC
Hi! I would look elsewhere. It does not sound like the mgr cares much and won't budge on this. You can receive better pay and perks elsewhere. Best of luck!!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 12:48PM UTC
First, I totally agree with Anonymous, whose post began with "A few thoughts." Raises are based on performance, not time, and the average increase is only about 3%. While I have often seen companies complain about employees leaving and their lack of loyalty, the reality is that they need to leave to get the salary they desire. That said, you can circumvent the "high salary, low title" rule with a good professional resume writer. That is what I did when I was in your position. The writer paid less attention to job titles but laid out my accomplishments, which were C-Suite level. I secured an executive director position in a few months. Best of luck.
sjones9392April 26,2023 at 1:05PM UTC
Please don't stress about the title and salary mismatch. I'd contact the most reputable recruitment agency in your area, and meet with multiple recruiters. They'll be able to position you properly and get your foot in the door for opps that pay what you want with the correct title. Hit the ground running- this is a dead job for you. Let is be exciting since you're currently employed. Good luck!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:14PM UTC
If your salary is above the benchmark, then outside of getting promoted to a higher level job there's not much you can do. You are probably better off looking to transfer to another department or look externally for a new position. For your other question, being paid at a director level doesn't mean you're qualified to do a director-level job. Take a hard look at what you're doing day to day and do what you can to show that you can perform at a director level, which admittedly means different things at different firms and different industries. But across the board you should be driving vision and direction, managing managers, etc.
Sarah SchreinerApril 26,2023 at 1:25PM UTC
1-How to respond for being called out for my salary?
IMO don't respond to that. She just found out what your salary was? How convenient. I agree with all the comments about bringing your accomplishments to the conversation when asking for a raise but it sounds like you were met with the equivalent of a "How dare you ask for more when you're already getting so much?" This is gaslighting pure and simple. They wanted to talk you out of even considering going for more. It's gross behavior. And the "I just found out about this" comment either indicates seriously lacking management skills or an out and out lie, delivered in a way to make you feel like you were somehow doing something wrong by being compensated for your work.
2- What's the best narrative when looking to move on to a director job, without a previous director title but paid at that level?
I've been doing work at X level for Y years and based on my work on Z, A, & B I am ready to move into a director role. I think I'd be a perfect fit for this role because of C.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:27PM UTC
Your manager's comments...not appropriate. If they had said something to the effect of "you are high in the band for this position and level" that would have been ok. I think people should know where they fall in line with the range of a particular role. Making a comment comparing you to your peers is unprofessional, uncalled for, and irrelevant. Are your peers fairly compensated? Where do they fall in the band? It is a meaningless comment meant to shut you down. Titles are also irrelevant. As someone else said a title in one company may be something completely different in another. In my organization for some reason they decided not to use any of the "executive titles" like AVP, VP, EVP, etc. It is about the duties, the experience, and the contributions you can demonstrate on your resume. Apply for roles not based on title, but based on your experience and ability to contribute to the needs of the posting organization. Good luck with your job search (that is what I'd recommend). I second the recommendation of going to a recruiter.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 1:47PM UTC
Is this a new manager? If not, presumably she was giving you the raises. 3% is pretty standard for a raise. I’d not call that stingy. As to moving on, hopefully HR would focus on your accomplishments and experience, not job title. I’d make sure I had a good resume and cover letter highlighting my responsibilities.
Brenda CrawshawApril 26,2023 at 2:14PM UTC
What you are paid in relation to the other people at your company is totally irrelevant. What you are paid in relation to the amount and type of work you do IS. If you can find a way to say that to her in a nonconfrontational way, I would.
A 3% raise, while industry standard, is not keeping pace with cost of living and thus is unsustainable as all salary getters know and all salary givers don't. The cost of living now is almost 28% higher than seven years ago so the math doesn't math, if you know what I mean!
As far as pursuing a position that is titled in line with what you bring to the table, focus on what that is - your skills, experience and abilities. And if someone challenges you on pursuing a title above what you've had, just point back to your contributions. Very few people go from freshly minted to Director/VP - they've almost all moved up through the ranks to achieve their positions.
And I am not sure if this is applicable for you but some companies try to use "creative" titling in the under ranks to avoid having to offer comparable compensatory packages. I once worked at a hospital where anything under VP had bizarre combinations of terms to title the many many levels of reporting. So when I moved on from them I just told them that my title was their version of Director (it wasn't really) and that's what stood as I pursued new opportunities.
Good luck and keep us posted!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 2:45PM UTC
I read this after I had already posted, but this is exactly what my advice was. It’s excellent advice!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 2:41PM UTC
Job titles are irrelevant and those are just titles each company chooses to assign to specific duties. Your knowledge, skill and experience is what determines if you’re qualified for any job—not a current or previous title. If your salary has fallen out of line with market value then present that evidence, request a salary adjustment, but prepared for a “no.” I won’t say it doesn’t matter what your peers make, but that’s not your problem. If you are being undervalued it’s up to you to decide how you want to reconcile. -Try for a raise-Try for a promotion (with a raise not just a title)-Look for a new job with higher compensation and a different title Your manager bringing up your comp relative to your peers isn’t a helpful discussion. If she wants to be supportive she can agree to support your efforts for a raise, while advising that you may be at the higher end of the salary band for that role so you can level set your expectations.
Afo Ogbeyalu KaluApril 26,2023 at 3:13PM UTC
Q: What's the best narrative when looking to move on to a director job, without a previous director title but paid at that level? . . . .
I advise my clients in similar situations to add another section to their resumes which identifies and highlights accomplishments outside of one's scope of work. An example of this would be . . .
02/2015-04/2023: DE FACTO ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, Acme Industries, Anytown, USA
*Partnered with the Director of Operations to develop long-term operational strategies, while working closely with senior management to meet the objectives of the organization
*Lead negotiations, drafted budgets, oversaw purchasing, identified and corrected deficiencies in productivity, in efforts to maximize company performance
*Witnessed an average of 22% increase in productivity across 3 departments due in large part to initiatives initiated and implemented by the Operations Team
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 3:34PM UTC
“I’m a domestic engineer” … yep. A homemaker.. for 15 years, the pay sucked, but I loved my coworkers aka kids…. Title…. It is just that.
and I got back into the working world… and put that on my resume☺️. I’m creative and you wouldn’t believe how many people had to ask what “a domestic engineer” was or “what school” did I graduate from (hard Knox lol).
I’m sorry you were thwarted into such a confrontation, and nothing worse than someone pulling out your salary which you would assume is private…
my advice is to look where you think your skills would be valued. No one will understand this more than you. Best of luck to you and I hope I at least made you smile.?
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 3:37PM UTC
I feel your pain, and I’m glad you brought this up. I’m in a similar position where I have a manager title (almost 5 years), and there’s no room for growth. My next step is an executive role as I’m currently performing at that level except my direct reports are coordinators, specialists, and doctors. I too worry that my title might be a barrier but refuse to alter it on my resume. I want the new job to be based around my accomplishments. Someone will see our value and ask us to join their team. Next job, we’ll be well-compensated with a title to match, and we won’t have to ask for raises each time we know deserve one (high-performing) because we’ll be so valued that our employer will be afraid to lose us. Wishing you all the best. P.S. your manager is hating. Your salary is too close to hers. Ignore her comments
Jennifer AndersonApril 26,2023 at 4:02PM UTC
I'm in the same position as you and have a title that can run from very entry-level to very high depending on the company and the responsibility level in the company.
I am in the process of changing jobs within the company. What I mean is that I approached my manager and said - This is what my title is, this is what that means in the industry and this is what you asked me to do which is actually the level up. What can we do to get me a title change by my next review.
Now keep in mind, I like my job and the people I work with BUT when something happens and I have to depart, I want the salary AND the title so that the resume scanners don't bump me because I don't have the specific words in my title. Thankfully, my boss supports this and is working on it for my next review. She keeps mentioning a change so that I can get a salary change but for me it's about the title. Yes, the increase would be nice but for me, it's about equalizing the job title and then I will worry about salary.
Good Luck!
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 4:26PM UTC
This happened to me at a previous company. It was a red flag. I was hired at this company based on my previous salary. A few years in, the company did a third party salary review, which was tricky because they had employees in different states (some rural and some urban). I don’t know how they compared apples to apples in this situation. The company was bought out and I was one of the first to be laid off. I imagine my perceived “high salary” was a factor. Also, discrimination because there is a bias about how much a woman should make. If I were a man, I feel my salary would have been less scrutinized. Welcome to the glass ceiling! My next job, I took a pay cut and it took about 3 years of raises and bonuses to get back to that salary…
NPWApril 26,2023 at 4:50PM UTC
Regarding #1, unless it was done unprofessionally or untactful, I would not dwell on it. Your manager is probably correct in that she just found out about your salary and that you are the highest paid. Don't assume your manager knows your salary information. Things have definitely changed over the course of the years regarding direct report salary information. I have 14 people reporting to me and I do not know their salaries. Regarding #2: Let your job responsibilities, duties, knowledge, and experience speak for itself when you update your resume. Include a cover page that clearly states your title desire. When you highlight the above, talent recruiters will pull your name if they are seeking a director for AVP because you will have those skills. When you are being screened for the position, as long as you can speak to what's on your resume, you can and will get that title position.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 5:37PM UTC
From what your manager said, this means you are being paid close to what she is being paid. So there is no way to overcome this. It is clearly time for you to move on. Seven years at a place is not shameful. And you have the best answer to why you are looking for a new position - the corporate structure was very flat and there was no room for you to grow ( into the the Director/AVP position that you are now seeking._ Yes, it is a lateral move in responsibility and pay but that means you will excel. So start thinking about where else you can do what you do and where in that company you want to go.... this is life telling you something - LISTEN
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 6:14PM UTC
You are suffering from something called internal compression. You need to think about what you really want. The best place for someone who is tenured but overpaid in a big company but lacking a title is a startup. That will likely mean less money but you trade that for title. You are not likely to get both.
as for your comments: 1-How to respond for being called out for my salary?
You don't or perhaps let her know that you earned that and still feel that you have more room for growth in the team. If you get negativity back then you know she might be making less than you with a bigger title. That often is the case in bigger companies.
2- What's the best narrative when looking to move on to a director job, without a previous director title but paid at that level?
You let prospective employers know that unless your boss is fired there is no room for mobility up and that you want that as a next step. Be prepared to take less to get the title as most bigger companies want like for like and won't take the risk on you.
Search your soul...think about what you really want and shop your experience as well in the venture community where there may be startup opportunities with titles that could net you what you hope for.
AnonymousApril 26,2023 at 7:05PM UTC
O.P here, I wanted to say I am so thankful for all the women who took the time to read and give thoughtful and honest feedback. I had more feedback here than I had in 7 years working at my company. What a great community!
Bridget HarringtonApril 26,2023 at 7:40PM UTC
I had a similar experience about 15 years ago. When I requested a salary review, I was told that I was making the highest salary in the department. Fortunately, I had a great mentor who told me how to respond to this, prior to it happening. She was a stickler on making sure I knew my worth and knew how to get it. My response was, "I am not concerned with what others are making. That is their business. I am here to discuss BRINGING *MY* SALARY UP TO MARKET RATE." I ended up leaving that company, for that reason. Poor managers will often try to guilt people into "staying in the crab pot." Like, if "others" are tolerating it, why aren't you? In other words, they make it personal/emotional when it's really a cause and effect relationship. Businesses pay you to do jobs and compensate you based on the value they place on your skills and experience. If you make it less "personal" in your mind, it's easier to wrap your brain around.
ALWAYS know what your worth is in the marketplace, so you can speak to what you are being paid and what you want. Some industries pay lower than others. That is a justification some of the time. Smaller companies also pay less. As does geography. When I moved from the east coast to the southwest, I had to justify my high target salary level in a place that is lower cost of living, so people make less. Always have an explanation (and it doesn't have to be "accurate" either) as to why you make X and why you want Y. The explanation should start with, "My skills are worth...." This information is easy to find online, but if you aren't finding it, call or email a recruiter and ask them what, in the opinion of similar people they place, what salary level you should be at.
I've also been the recipient of meaningless titles. This is where explaining your skills and experience on a resume and in person comes into play. I once worked for a company that refused to give the title of "manager" to anyone without a specific degree level. Yet, I earned the salary and had the responsibilities of a manager. You can also explain a title as "acting X." In that company, I was referred to as "Marketing Communications Associate," so on resumes, I put the title, then after it (Acting Department Manager). My duties and accomplishments backed it up, and reference checks would indeed prove that I was the Acting Manager of that area. If given the choice, I won't be swayed by a title. We all know people who hold fancy titles that are meaningless. Your title doesn't determine "what" you are to a company - your responsibilities and salary does. I don't call if they call me "Queen of Sparkly Prose and Manager of Paper Stuff" or whatever, as long as I have the salary and respect that matches my experience and day to day contributions.
Farah BajwaApril 26,2023 at 10:05PM UTC
Thanks for sharing this!! I learned great tips! Its really about perspective, huh :)
Deborah AndrewsApril 26,2023 at 8:18PM UTC
1) You don't respond for being called out for your salary. Your boss already showed you who she is and your company has already showed you how they value people. Don't respond with words, but with actions when you take another job for a higher pay.
2) Titles and the weight of those titles vary from job to job. Apply for all the Director and AVP Roles out there. When they ask you what your comp is (illegal in most places now) or what you WANT your comp to be, say the following:
"In my professional experience, female job seekers tend to undervalue themselves when they are asked this question, so in an effort to avoid that, I would like to ask you what the salary range for this position is and I will let you know if that aligns with what I am looking for." If they don't like this question or push back, that's actually a good indication that it might be another company that is stingy with comp. Better to know that at the beginning of the interview process than at the offer stage.
Best of luck!
Valerie RiegerApril 27,2023 at 3:52PM UTC
On being called out on your salary - I have never concerned myself with what others make. I've focused on being compensated fairly and appropriately for the work that I do. Your manager should have that same mindset. If she doesn't, help her get there. Do some research on what people with your experience, education, and credentials make (I use the Bureau of Labor Statistics to help with most all of my compensation questions.)
As for moving to a director level position, I've learned that what one organization calls a manager the next may call a director. Look for duties and tailor your resume to reflect the duties potential employers are seeking.
AnonymousApril 27,2023 at 7:57PM UTC
I'm in a similar situation. I am the support for 8 other people, including training. For all of 2022, I was working with a new employee to get them trained, but they just never seemed to be able to do the job. I'd told their direct manager before they'd hit their 90 days that I did not seem them working out. 9 months in they had to take a personal leave that was supposed to last 2 weeks, so I took care of it. The leave was extended, and kept getting extended until they'd been out almost 3 months, at which point after they stopped responding, they were fired. At that point, I was asked if I'd be willing to take the job on permanently and we discussed pay. I requested a fairly reasonable range, albeit on the slightly higher end, given that I was technically taking on 2 roles. HR knocked the counteroffer down to less than half what I asked and wouldn't budge and refused to backpay for the 3 months I'd already been doing the job, stating it would set a precedence... The final counter offer I made that the manager agreed to was to guarantee 6% at my next raise. Well, they just did the company-wide raises and apparently the manager did not get approval for the 6% and HR would only do 4%. The manager apologized and is claiming they will be able to do another $1/hr in a few months. But with that, I'd be the highest paid administrator, and would basically be hitting the ceiling as far as real raises (I'd get the basic annual raise that's pretty much just a COLA).
Unfortunately, I actually like my job and the people I work with. But if HR and the company are going to be stingy when it comes to recognizing and rewarding value (which they've shown to do to a number of other people I know who work their asses off), then I don't know if I can stay. I'd rather find somewhere else that will not only compensate me for the value I provide, but provide other benefits like flexible hybrid or remote opportunities, and a real chance to move up.
Best of luck to you. I know how hard it is.