DISCUSSIONS

I was recently placed on a coaching plan for the way I communicate with my boss.

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Kristi Hoffman Spear

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I was recently placed on a coaching plan for the way I communicate with my boss. The write-up says that I am argumentative and question every decision they make. I was given one week to respond to the write-up, with a formal review scheduled in less than 3 weeks.

We have met twice, with another manager in attendance, and I have asked for clarification and specifics in order to understand how to change/improve.

In both meetings, my boss has become agitated, upset, defensive and even insulting with me. She brings up situations that are months or years in the past. At one point, the other manager stepped in to get them back on track.

I am finding it difficult to understand what is expected of me in the next 3 weeks in order to keep my job.

Our company is huge, but my location is small with 12 people on site. My boss’s manager signed off on the write up.

I would appreciate any advice or insight on how a coaching plan works, and how I can move forward.

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  1. Jackie Ruka

    From my perspective as an employee Experience and coach, both parties need to be coached and better learn your communication style plus that of the other person.

    And although asking for examples is helpful for you to better understand what you may need to correct , it just puts your manager on the defense. Especially since it sounds like he or she has already put you in a box as the argumentative one.
    This sounds like a personality clash more so than your abilities to do your job.
    There are four communication style
    controlling, analytical, supportive and promotional . Once you determine your style and understand it you both can learn to better communicate.

    Hope that helps!

  2. Anonymous

    To keep your job ( which may not be possible at this point) I would stop with your questions (by now I assume you know your job) and try to be positive and supportive of everyone you work with. Try and improve the culture instead of questioning the actions of others.

    I'm sure you'll say you didn't do anything and have no idea what you can change. And if that's the case, then accept you are being targeted because your boss and his manager (who agreed to sign off on your writeup) don't like you and want you gone.

    In situations of attitude and questioning, it's usually a matter of a mismatch of temperament and personality and asking for examples only highlights those differences. Since you are not aware of what you are doing to contribute to the negative results, I'd say you just don't fit.

  3. Anonymous

    Excellent and actionable advice. I agree that this work relationship seems to be coming to an end. Time to make sure your resume is up to date. Aggressively start looking for a new job, you’re not going to win this one. These meetings, check ins and write ups are perfunctory steps as they move towards termination.

  4. Anonymous

    "Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies!"

  5. Anonymous

    Not sure this is salvageable. You still sound argumentative in this post! You can continue challenging your boss and the witness to provide you with satisfactory examples of your behavior, but that will only cement their decision to put you on notice.

    Unless you’re ready to apply the good ole’ lens of self awareness, and truly be curious about ways to improve this work sitch, this is a sinking ship. If they’re not offering an executive coach or career counseling, they’re done with you. You’ll have a few more really uncomfortable weeks with each other and this will end in termination because you’re not a good cultural fit for the organization.

    Might be time for you to say: I think our time together is coming to an end, can we talk about a severance agreement. This might but you a month or two of pay, an extension of your health benefits and a recommendation.

  6. Anonymous

    In my opinion, asking for examples and information on what you are doing to create negativity is usually passive aggressive and damaging.

    You are lucky they have only provided you an opportunity for massive change abd didn't fire you by now.

    Use this time to reflect and stop all the negativity. Look for a new job just in case you've blown this situation up already and they are merely documenting your termination for cause.

  7. Jennifer Prymula

    Can you explain why you would consider asking for examples and info would be passive aggressive and damaging? It sounds like the OP was genuinely surprised, and wanted to make improvements.

  8. Dcre1977

    I d not understamd this attitude at all.
    HR would expect concrete examples.

  9. Anonymous

    It sounds as if they are simply documenting things to protect themselves when they let you go. Dust off your resume and update it NOW. If they just want a "yes" person, then they don't deserve you, you have way more to give and they are simply threatened by your knowledge. Get out of there before they fire you as it's always easier to find a job when you have one.

  10. Wendy Place Burns

    Agree 100% with this response. As someone who has had to deliver several 'performance improvement plans' I can tell you that these CAN be designed by the creator (your manager, etc) to in fact be anything but a course for improvement. I'd work through the plan to the best of your ability if only to take some tools with you for your next best role, and start looking for that role. Sounds like this company has a toxic environment, not uncommon but you can do better - go for it and best of luck!

  11. Anonymous

    Wow, i got the same kind of thing, for refusing to help my boss pay a bribe, lie to customers, and attack other employees. I am absolutely not argumentative about that stuff - it will not be happening, period and whatever idiot decided that was a good idea is going to be hearing about it. They told me I was unprofessional and insubordinate. I accept and will always be insubordinate around BS. Don't get confused about it. Know your self, know your enemy. They don't value your opinion, and they're insecure, so their next move is to document enough to fire you. It's not your fault this is happening. But it's your responsibility to make positive changes for your self. So you can do the kindergarten coaching stuff and be a robot for them, which only lasts so long, or you can find a new job where you are actually valued and also paid. Cash is nice and useful. Value and cash is better but not always achievable. Get some clarity on what you want for you. I believe in you and I wish you really good luck, whatever you decide.

  12. Anonymous

    A coaching plan only works if you're willing to drop the defensive arguing and asking for examples. You have to be open to change and work hard to change people's opinion on you based on your past behavior.

    I hope you really get a second chance to keep your job. If not, learn this lesson for your next job.

  13. Dcre1977

    If the manager can not find concrete examples, then it likely did not happen.
    If the manager has to bringanother manager to help coach he is likely inexperienced, which is where the problem with communication is. Communication is a two way street.

  14. Anonymous

    The manager can put forth hundreds of examples but if the employee is so defensive that they can’t hear it… they are probably not listening and are likely

    to say “there weren’t any example.”

  15. Dcre1977

    Thats pretty convenient, some manager could be just making accusations with out any supporting evidence and then claim its the employee that isn't hearing them? Seems a prime way to create an abusive environment

  16. Holly Connor

    It sounds like they have already made the decision on you so be prepared. I run a large department with multiple teams and I will tell you the best thing for you is to get HR involved.

    • Ask for written expectations in clear detail
    • Ask for HR to be part in the future conversations to ensure you have your own advocate (for both sides really) in order to ask questions or ensure everyone is clear with no repercussions
    • Keep your own recaps of the progress you make with time stamps
    • Ask for or send your own recap of every conversation regarding your performance with your manager (and HR) and send it after every meeting - send it to everyone involved every time and make sure you keep to the facts with no emotion. Avoid "I feel". Just recap the highlights good or bad to show your understanding so when they come back and say "no it was this" you use it as a way to refer back.

    Plan on this already being too late to come out of this so prepare for the worst. but all in all if you still get let go and you have all this stuff saved in writing and in your personal email, you can get unemployment if you do what they say and they still fire you.

    I hope it works out. I cant say who is in the right or wrong - but CYA just like they are.

  17. Mo Faul, Founder, CEO, Exec Coach

    Insee this all the time with my clients- it could be a chronic stress or job trauma pattern sneaking in and subtly or unconsciously affecting your communication or an attractor pattern that you need to break. It’s a real thing and stops women all the time as we typically take on too much and become the worst version of our selves!

  18. Liz Milne

    Honestly, it sounds like your manager is intimidated by you and/ or has a lack of self-esteem, especially given that the other manager had to step in to 'get them back on track' - seems like the other manager got your meaning and intention, but your own manager didn't?

    Maybe explain that you don't mean to sound argumentative, you are simply clarifying various points so you fully understand your manager's wishes, to best complete the work the way they want it done?

    I'm guessing (might be wrong) that your manager is a woman who is maybe a little older and feeling overwhelmed by the rapid changes in technology/ ways of working etc, who could potentially see you as a threat to her position?

    Sympathy and touch of obsequiesness might serve you in good stead if you want to smooth over this hump and continue in your role? Failing that, ask their boss if you can transfer to work under a different manager? Good luck with it all!

  19. Dcre1977

    Do not stereotype. I had the same problem with a male my age. The problem was he was promoted to fast in a field he did not have as much experience in. So he felt defensive when I asked or said something he did not understand.

  20. Liz Milne

    I did say 'I could be wrong,' for exactly that reason.

    In my personal experience though, insecure male managers tend to be aggressive (blaming, accusing etc), while insecure female managers tend more to the defensive (denying, what-abouting, not-my-fault-ing) - obviously everyone is different and you can get a spectrum running from defensive to aggressive with everyone, regardless of their gender...

  21. Dcre1977

    Saying "personal experience" is just a way to soften the stereotyping. I have worked with aggressive female bosses and defensive males bosses.

  22. Liz Milne

    Saying 'I could be wrong' is an acknowledgement that I may well be wrong...

    Saying 'personal experience' offers my own, unique view - I'm sorry if that's a stereotypical view in your opinion, but my experience is what it is, I can't edit that for political correctness, much as I would love to be able to...

  23. Anonymous

    Or this woman is a toxic employee herself?

  24. Liz Milne

    She could be, sure, but this is a help site, so I take posts at face value when I can. I've had a manager like the one I describe above, hence my line of thinking.

  25. amjjenki

    This happened to me.... four weeks later I was fired. Some things to do, that helped me.

    1. Update your resume and begin looking for a new job.
    2. If/when you are let go make sure to ask them if they will approve your unemployment claim, what kind of severance will you receive, ask about a letter of recommendation for future jobs.
    3. Your ego is going to get bruised, your going to question your ability and you may actually become argumentative in a future role. As soon as you can, find a therapist or coach to work with you. You don't want this to hinder your future career.
    4. And most of all, take care of yourself.

    Good luck!

  26. Carol Sardinha

    Honestly, try and get transferred ASAP or start looking for a new position. The fact that your boss acted that way in front if another boss, there is a better chance you will be able to transfer. By the same token, if you can't transfer, you need to start looking for a new position immediately. Your situation will NOT improve if you stay where you are.

  27. Lisa Williams

    There is a saying that I like. "Wherever you go, there you are". If you are planning to leave, it is important that you reflect on this issue to see if you are indeed part of the issue. If not, you will take this type of communication to other jobs.

  28. Anonymous

    Agreed! OP has a blind spot.

  29. Anonymous

    I hate to say it but performance plans are done to protect the company when they fire you.
    To me this is obviously the situation for you because it is so short. Three weeks is not enough time to learn of an issue, make improvements, and be able to demonstrate those improvements. Work your way through the plan and document everything so you can get unemployment when you are let go. Definitely start your job search now.

  30. Diane Reid

    I think you need to decide whether you are open to accepting the feedback and working to change. If yes, ask coworkers for their honest feedback on your communication style. If not, looking for another job is your best option.

  31. Erin Beemer

    I agree - if your intention is to ask for clarification but your communication style is sending a message you don't intend, getting some honest feedback from your coworkers could be helpful to you in the long term (even if the current situation cannot be repaired).

  32. Anonymous

    Unfortunately almost any time any sort of employee improvement plan gets brought into the mix it is so your boss and HR can show proof that steps were taken on their part to improve the situation. It nearly always ends up in the employee being let go.....that happened to me in July this year. Echoing the others who are encouraging you to start looking elsewhere.

  33. Anonymous

    It happened to me. "We tried working with you..." ha! I could write a book about what they called trying.

  34. Anonymous

    "We tried working with you and other lies"

  35. GirlBossanova934974

    Wow!
    If this isn't a perfect example of gas-lighting, I don't know what it is. Your boss is the one with the problem, not you! Talk about thin skin and a huge need for hand holding etc.. And when this so called manager gets questioned about the evidence on the table, they get defensive. IF I were you, I would require your HR department to provide you with a WRITTEN TRANSCRIPT of anything that was discussed when an HR manager was present and/or a third manager was present. BECAUSE believe me, if you lose your job, you can take that written transcript to any employment attorney and they will take on your case and probably walk away with a nice mid to high 5 figure settlement depending upon your salary level. In the meanwhile, I would ask for a transfer ASAP and or leave this company. A transfer is a good idea.

  36. Anonymous

    In an at-will situation, there are few scenarios that will yield a settlement. I wouldn't count on getting anything more than a decent severance package out of this.

  37. GirlBossanova934974

    Four months ago, I walked away with a lower six figure employment termination dispute settlement. I could have had more if I had gone to court. There are MANY scenarios that will yield a settlement. At-Will excuses a whole lot less than many people think. The most important point is to understand the burden of proof is on the employee. In my case, I had an inch thick pile of emails, work documents, affidavits from former employees etc.. The minute HR got involved with this case, the employer incurred a lot more liability as the employer cannot claim a rogue supervisor was acting on his/her own. When and if a transcript of these meetings gets into the Discovery process, settlement offers are very likely to come out. The big word? BIAS! Since the supervisor of record is likely to face a hostile deposition process and be asked to explain his/her actions having failed to do so during company meetings, this will be of great concern to defendant's counsel. It can go downhill fairly quickly and punitive damages can add a lot to the compensatory damages.

  38. Tahirah Wineglass

    I would make plans to move on. That environment is toxic and it’s not worth your mental and physical health.

  39. Anonymous

    This sounds toxic, document your good performance and get out.

  40. Martha Youngblood

    From what you've written, it seems to me that your boss is the one in need of coaching. How are you to change and improve if you don't ask questions for clarification. Sounds like your boss just wants a "yes" person who does things without question. Any boss that doesn't welcome questions is a boss I don't want to work for.

  41. April Donnell-Surgant

    I would request a meeting with HR. They can conduct a detailed break-out of expectations or even an investigation of behavior that is out of line with your company's code of conduct.

  42. Anonymous

    Just keep in mind that HR works for the company, and managers are less expendable to them than the people beneath them.

  43. Anonymous

    Yes, HR typically just rubber stamps whatever managers want to do.

  44. Anonymous

    This isn’t how HR works. HR is involved in the decision to put someone on a coaching plan and they have best practices on how to craft the coaching plan, but it is the job of the manager to populate with examples.

  45. Anonymous

    I did a coaching plan for my employee who really had issues but it was a 90 day plan. And I had to have specific examples and dates associated to each of the actions.

    you should as for that. If he’s bring it up things that happened 6 months ago I think that’s pretty lame, it should be more recent.

    mask for a a 360 review from your peers…or even just see if one of your actions could be your solicited feedback from your peers that would help shed light to how others see you. Give you time to figure out your next move. At the same time I would document every conversation with your boss (a pain but with protecting yourself) and even send it to him asking for feedback…like here what we discussed, how you think the meeting went and end with please let me know if you disagree.

    side not asking questions to understand decisions is not wrong, my team ask me all the time.

  46. Bradford McCormick

    Gee! You question what your boss says? Is what you say inane, or is what your boss says questionable? If the former, obviously don't say it. If the latter, apparently your boss doesn't want to own up to his stupidity (is he a toadie?). Kick the cat.

    It will not help you, but here is a true story. I worked in a big bank's IT department. The 2nd shift data center manager was an old army man. His boss was, well.... It got to the point that the 2nd shift manager said to his boss: "You tell me to dig a hole, I dig a hole. You tell me to fill it up again, I fill it up again. Anything you want, Sir!" He earned what I called a "re"motion to 3rd shift data center manager.

    Are you working in North Korea? You read the writing on the wall. You need a hobby: looking for a position where your insights will be valued.

  47. Rhonda Royal

    This is sad, my thoughts are that the comp. wants to terminate you, so they’ll do humiliating things. Questioning anyone isn’t a crime or offense , raising your voice isn’t either, nor is going to anyone in a higher position to report your discontent with your mgr. Sadly enough, some of those in management, administration, etc. will ‘dish it out’ but never ever accept that they’re wrong. Report your treatment to HR (they may not do much, but report anyway). The will fire you or do their due diligence to make your work life miserable. Find another job and Good Luck to you!

  48. Goalsetter498760

    If you haven't already, I would absolutely start looking for a new job - either within the company or otherwise.
    Sometimes you can do it, but waiting out a toxic boss (which - I'm so sorry - is exactly what you have) usually harms you more than them.

    In the meantime, document document document.

    Write down everything you can remember about the meetings you had with your boss and other manager, including every old item you can remember that was brought up. Also document every time you feel like you need clarification on a request from boss and exactly how you ask for it.

    It sounds like your boss is similar to my former boss, who saw every clarifying question I asked as an argument.

  49. Heather Tearney

    Great advice - documentation is key. I have seen this happen too often, and oftentimes it is because the supervisor/manager is fearful of the employee outshining them. Also, instead of working towards the good of the company/program/client the supervisor only does what is in their own best interest and they don't want to be called out for that.

  50. Anonymous

    Exactly!

  51. Edie Rodetsky

    I would also send a meeting recap in writing. That way if it gets "contentious" you are stepping back and affirming things logically.

    That is the only want to deal with someone like that.

  52. Anonymous

    I did this! I got let go anyway, but I got a good severance package. I always opened these emails with something like "This is what I remember -- please let me know if I got something wrong." My boss almost never replied, and when she did it was just before our next 1-on-1, when it was too late for me to do project ABC in the way she wanted it done. (her instructions were always vague, but it was always my fault if I didn't do what she decided she wanted after seeing the result).

  53. Goalsetter498760

    This truly reads like you had almost the exact same boss I did! Lol

    (I got set up for a firing *very* similarly to OP, did what they asked as best as I could - even though it was completely unclear - so they couldn't fire me and then they took the opportunity to include me in a mass layoff at the company so honestly, we all won.)

  54. Anonymous

    Memorialize all conversations with your boss in emails to yourself from your corporate email to your personal email. If you can, type your notes as you are talking (on phone calls, or in zoom). The more documentation you have, the better you'll feel, and the better your chance of getting a transfer to a better boss.

  55. Cami Caudill

    Don't "burn a bridge" but do start looking for another position. I had something similar happen and I absolutely bombed it. I fired back a very emotional response . Take the time to really delve into what they are asking you to do. Be mindful of the impact your response will have. And! DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.

  56. Anonymous

    I’ve been where you are.
    I wasn’t placed on a coaching / improvement plan, but I was written up for my communication with my boss. I was also told I was too argumentative and asked too many questions.

    They pushed back my year end review by three months. And I just did my best not to disagree or ask any questions. If I had questions, I asked someone else at the organization. If I disagreed with something, I just didn’t speak up and let the cards fall where they did...

    I made it through the review and eventually they removed my write up.

    Now this boss is high up in the organization and people see him for who he is. Several people have left, and almost everyone (except his favored few) dislike him. He has demoted good workers and most people don’t respect him. Even one person who back in the day kept telling me he wasn’t so bad has now changed his tune.

    I guess it really depends on whether you want to stick around your organization. I did and jumped through the hoops. And now my former boss has mostly moved on from me to ruin the work lives of other people.

  57. Anonymous

    My review was 3 months late and one of the criticisms was missing deadlines! That was rich.

  58. Anonymous

    I understand that. My boss didn't respond to emails at all and so it was very frustrating to try and communicate with him. He didn't respond to other peoples' emails either and they would ask me to have him respond to them. I'm like..I wish! He just didn't respond to anyone. And yet he got promoted...

  59. Anonymous

    Sounds like those people are feeling threatened by your KSAs.

    I have a saying. "How's a guy to learn anything if he doesn't ask questions?"
    That usually shuts down their antagonistic attitude.

  60. EMILY KIKUE FRANK

    I've been in your shoes, as well, and will reiterate what others have said: document everything, AND start looking. Your boss has decided to dislike you and you aren't likely to be able to fix that-- especially because you don't know why.

    And for what it's worth, I'm sorry. It sucks and can make you doubt your competence and decency, but when it's time to move on, try to see this as just a moment in time.

  61. Marlane Lord

    You describe a very unprofessional boss here.
    Even if you maybe did overstep some lines, you deserve to be treated professionally by those above you. You are smart enough to realize that you need more clarity in order to improve your performance. While you may not have an HR rep on the premises of your site, you should ask for corporate HR to oversee this process. If anything, HR should standardize the process you are going through. But I agree that you need to document, document, document. You need to show that you tried to make this work in case you find yourself making a defensible case in front of an Unemployment Comp Referee. Best wishes...I really hate to hear about the "do as I say and not as I do" mentality out there.

  62. Anonymous

    Please clarify, are you saying that a formalized coaching plan is not professional?

  63. Marlane Lord

    I'm not saying the coaching plan is unprofessional, though it might be if it isn't structured and written in a professional manner. And if there isn't enough supporting documentation to it or specifics as to how the employee can improve, then it needs rewritten. But I am saying the boss is demonstrating unprofessional behavior by becoming agitated, upset, defensive and even insulting to the employee at a time when the boss needs to exemplify professionalism!

  64. Edie Rodetsky

    My recommendation, FWIW, is to put all of your questions in writing.

    if you have to ask questions in person, I would add clarifiers - "What I heard you say is X and what you want me to do is Y. Is there any context that you can offer that can help me meet your expectations."

    It sucks to have to walk on egg shells.

  65. Erin Beemer

    Being put on an improvement plan but without clear definition how to improve is really not acceptable. Can you work with the "neutral" manager and HR to show that you are open to understand what is expected but your boss is not defining specific actions? I would expect this type of process, especially with a large company, to have very defined goals/outcomes with dates which should be defined by your manager and followed up with HR. I would also expect to have a defined cadence of meetings with HR and your manager to review the progress.

    I agree with others, this seems like gaslighting but you also want to leave on good terms if possible. I think getting HR or the other manager to help you is important because your boss seems to be the bigger issue.

    I'd also look to move, although normally when an employee is on an improvement plan they cannot move, so this is again where getting HR on your side could help to alleviate this situation.

  66. Dcre1977

    They are clearly planning to get rid of you. Request HRs presence. It won't help you but can help document the managers behavior for future scrutiny of his job.

    If you have email documentation of these questions you ask of the manager, show in your response why these questions were necessary to do your job. Show any documentation of appreciation for anything you have done in your response as well.

    In meantime, start your job search. It is unlikely HR will do anything before you find new employment. However documentation will help other employees should they have problems.

  67. Anonymous

    The exact same thing happened to me, and I was eventually let go after failing to "adapt to the culture" i.e., my boss didn't like me.

    There was absolutely nothing I could do to change the direction things were going.

    It's been proven that men are evaluated on the basis of accomplishments and women are evaluated on the basis of personality or "communication." But... if your manager is female, you can't sue on that basis.

    Your best bet would be a transfer.

    Good luck in the future, and I hope you can get a good severance package out of this. If you live in a one-party consent state, you can record your interactions, but it would only give you something to counter the gaslighting, not something to take to another boss or court.

    One thing I did en route to my ouster was respond to write-ups and poor performance evaluations (based on nothing at all) using the outline format used in the legal profession. I have no idea if it scared HR into giving me a good severance package, but it was one passive-aggressive self-soothing thing that I can look back on. I can at least say that I didn't go down without a fight.

  68. Dcre1977

    I did the same. The manager was let go 6 weeks after I left.

  69. Crystal Howell

    Sorry about this, most managers are power hungry and think if you question their decision their insecurity steps in, then defense then write them up so they quit. I commend you to stay and fight, what industry are you in?

    They are basically trying to build a case, have you been written up before, do they have documentation on telling you are doing something against policy? I would contact a first consultation free employment attorney to discuss how to proceed, maybe your rights were violated, discirmination against women, who knows. Check out how others are treated? Document and screen shot important conversations. Good Luck

  70. Anonymous

    Im curious why you mean by power hungry.
    Can you give an example, Crystal.

  71. Michelle S.

    Power-hungry, as in trying to keep the good or most notable work for themselves so that they get the accolades, someone who is defensive about their employees because they are threatened with their knowledge. A great manager does everything possible to coach their employees up! Even to get them at the managers level. A great manager is never threatened by their employees. They want them to know more and do better because that intern makes the company better! If you don’t immediately know what a power-hungry manager is, then consider yourself fortunate that you’ve never worked with one!

  72. Anonymous

    I think categorizing most managers as power hungry is a stretch.

    Reasons why I became a manager: personal growth in strategy and business development for product line, using technical expertise to lead a team, using experience to improve customer relationships, personal growth to develop/mentor others, increased salary/bonus.

    Note, world domination was not among my reasons.

    Assuming people in leadership roles are always out to get you or do whatever possible to make themselves look better while stepping on others may be affecting the way you treat your leadership. If there is no trust that those responsible for leading others or leading the business have good intentions, then no matter what they do you will assume the worst. And probably you are treating your leadership this way.

    Of course, as in ANY role, there are people who are not a good fit for a manager or lack the necessary skills to manage people. But stating most of us are out for what we can get at all costs is really a ridiculous statement.

  73. Anonymous

    This "coaching" plan is code for Performance Improvement Plan. They are setting up to have grounds to fire you.

    Resign, or go on sick leave and find another job, you wont be able to resolve this. plus your boss sounds unstable.

  74. Anonymous

    This happened to me several years ago when I was in the IT field. My supervisor and director scheduled an intervention meeting with HR, because they felt I did not know my job well enough. The main problem was my supervisor did not want to delegate work to me (unless it was trivial or tedious work), because he wanted to be an individual contributor and the boss! After that meeting with HR he started assigning me extremely difficult projects and was setting me up for failure. I actually did pretty good on the outcome of the projects, however I still felted bullied. Needless to say, I started looking for another job and left the IT field for good! I knew if I stayed that I would eventually be fired!

    Your situation sounds like you are being bullied and you should document and date everything. You may want to consider applying for another position within the company or apply outside of your company. I wish you the best of luck!

  75. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    She is not being bullied. She is not performing.

  76. Jen Frischen

    100% agreed. By the time you are put on a "coaching plan" it's a done deal. All management is trying to do is check the boxes so they can let you go. Whether this is because of something you have actually done or not done, or it is because management has plans to move someone else into your spot, the "coaching plan" is nothing more than a "check the boxes" deal.

    I think the original poster probably knows this.

  77. Michelle S.

    I mean I agree, but that should not be the case.

    As a Director of HR, my job and goal was always to try to save that employee. A PIP was to let them know it’s serious. But I also understand that unfortunately, a lot of HR and management do not utilize best practices. The reason the above is so shady is because a PIP should never come out of the blue. An employee should absolutely know and understand that a PIP is coming. If you have done your job correctly as a manager and HR, you have given at least two verbal and a written warning to this employee . And conducting counseling or a PIP on Feedback from a year ago is just wrong. It’s not just not best practice, it’s wrong. If you’re not writing an employee up for a policy violation within a month, it’s too late. You give them a verbal and move on. But they don’t get a written after months have went by.

    It is so expensive, so much more expensive, to replace an employee than to counsel one so the goal should always be to keep them. Training and finding and replacing a new employee can cost upwards of 50K. So it sucks for those toxic environments that either have a lackluster HR or not one at all, that they do do this just so they don’t have to pay unemployment.
    ***But I hope everyone remembers that you always fight for unemployment, even if they’ve documented. Unless there is obvious policy violation, theft, assault, etc, feedback is subjective and it never hurts to try for unemployment. ??‍♀️

  78. Anonymous

    In my company they are not the same thing.

  79. Kim Raper

    Document for sure everything you are telling us here, with all the specifics including the other mgr attending and intervening with your boss's behavior during the meeting. Its unlikely this will end well for you but its worth trying at this point. I would request clarification in writing of complaints and issues so that you have a guideline to follow for improvement. Make it difficult for them but know that its likely not going to change the outcome. Do what you feel is necessary to protect yourself but i would brush off resume and start looking as a precaution. Even if you are not release, can you work in that structure going forward will be the question.

  80. Anonymous

    I’m astounded by the comments in this thread.

    I am a manager.

    I put someone on a formal coaching plan for similar at the direction of HR.

    Let me debunk the comments below. I am not power hungry. I am not insecure. I am not evaluating my male direct reports differently from women. There was a set of behaviors that are unacceptable. Team
    mwmbers said they felt micro aggressions and refused to work with the direct report. That may be acceptable in some cultures, but not ours and not in a role as visible and collaborative as this one.

    In this case, the direct report had a history (prior to me becoming the manager) of speaking in a demeaning, condescending manner to Many team
    members and stakeholders. When I started this role team members of various roles, tenure, and gender came forward unprompted to share their experience of working with this direct report. The scenarios stated were clear, specific cases.

    Finally, the direct reports behavior escalated when assigned work the direct report argued with the tasks and refused to do them. Asking clarifying questions is encouraged and welcome. However, responding with comments like “this is stupid” is not. It is the job of the manager to assign work and refusal to do tasks that are written in the job description is insubordination. This isn’t a “hunger for power,” rather, this is my job to assign work.

    Managers put people on coaching plans as a last resort when the direct report hasn’t responded to ad-hoc coaching in 1:1s. Coaching plans are intended to help the DR improve. The manager wants that. By the way, this isn’t the opinion of just a “manager who doesn’t like you.” Speaking from experience, this is usually unsolicited feedback from peers.

    Each person is the hero of their own story. That said, we all have blind spots there are times when it’s important to recognize that certain behaviors (while well intended) may be setting us back.

    You have 2 choices:

    1). You can refuse to acknowledge this feedback. This will most assuredly result in termination.
    2) You can acknowledge the feedback and isolate the behaviors that are hurting your career and knock this coaching plan out of the park.

    Id recommend option 2. Why? You might as well welcome this feedback and set yourself up for success in your current role and future roles.

  81. Anonymous

    As a manager, setting boundaries and guidelines is part of the job, so a manager who says basically "be nicer" or characterizes any questioning of authority figures as "combative" has to step up their feedback game. The OP's boss doesn't seem to have been as discerning as you are about acceptable vs. unacceptable. And sometimes, a culture is just plain toxic if it can't accept differences in communication style. I came from one where a man could be a jerk ("That's just him being him") but a woman has to do the emotional labor of worrying how everyone feels to the detriment of her own work activities. I absolutely hated it.

  82. Anonymous

    I am not at liberty to be more specific in this forum.
    The situation was not as simple as “communication style.” As a manager, you would know that. Kindly keep your focus on the OP. Thanks.

  83. Michelle S.

    But isn’t the problem that they are not being forthright with details?
    Someone can say you are combative all day long and it means two entirely different things to two people. It is subjective feedback when, if you’re being put on a PIP plan, it should be detailed feedback. How else can you improve? And what’s the problem in giving that information if it is legit? On a sidenote, feedback from a year ago is useless. You are not utilizing best practice if you are counseling or coaching someone on a PIP with year-old Feedback. It should be within the month.

  84. Anonymous

    I can only share my experience and provide a POC from the perspective of a manager. I cannot comment on the topic of clarity of communication by the OPs manager. I wasn’t there and the language provided isn’t enough to go off of.

  85. Dcre1977

    I would think that coaching should be dealt with as the incident happens. If someone is blindsided, then they were never coached on this topic before.

    A gang up mentality could also indicate another cultural problem. I hope you witnessed his interaction with team mates and interacted with him to get a feel for what was going on.

  86. Anonymous

    thank you

  87. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    I think this is very true. Probably a collaborative attempt. This is good advice to follow.

  88. Anonymous

    You are spot-on, and I often see people claiming criticism came out of nowhere when they were told repeatedly that certain things were not acceptable and either dismissed it as minor or ignored the feedback completely. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've personally witnessed and participated in attempts to coach employees only to have them claim they were blindsided when the situation had to be escalated to a formal PIP.

  89. Anonymous

    Yes.... not every person on a PIP/coaching plan was put there out of spite as many posts of this nature would indicate.

  90. Anonymous

    If your boss is getting that agitated, upset and defensive in your meetings to clarify his expectations, sounds like he cannot articulate his issues. It may also be the reason you responded in an argumentative and questionable way. You should ask the person that witnessed the meeting their thoughts but “CYA” and document that you have asked for more specific examples of how to improve your interactions with him to no avail. Good luck to you. Perhaps your boss is the issue.

  91. Anonymous

    I had a boss (and organizational culture) that used indirect communication, and I was told I was too "abrasive." Asking for clarification was asking them to be direct, which they were unable to do. So I was in the wrong. They are allowed to be biased on the basis of communication style, and I was sent out the door. They are happy now with their inbred culture of codewords and unspoken rules and nobody to disrupt it, and I am happy to be out of there.

  92. Anonymous

    The manager can’t tell you exactly what the feedback was from others.
    That’s confidential to protect your peers from retaliation. They summarize it. So instead the employee says “the examples aren’t clear” or “there aren’t enough examples” or “this is too summarized” and uses that as a tactic to ignore the feedback. My question to you is, how many examples would it take for you to take the feedback seriously?

    This pattern of questioning is defensive. You’re arguing.

    My advice? Focus your questions on what to do going forward.

  93. Michelle S.

    how is a pattern of questioning defensive? LMAO! If your job and livelihood is on the line, you should always demand specific examples, including phrases and time frames, if possible. How does an employee know what to fix if they are told, you’re defensive. OK, how? It sounds like she is self aware, but she has no information, which she deserves. And, as it’s not best practice to talk about things that happened a year ago because if they were that big, they should’ve been addressed then. So since all of this is supposedly recent anyway, the examples and documentation should be Linkley, unless something else is going on. It doesn’t sound like this HR or manager is utilizing best practices. But, God forbid you were ever fighting for your own job, always question! You deserve details and answers, especially if it’s a PIP and you have an expected level of performance over the next period of time.

  94. Dcre1977

    So some random anonymous person can make wild accusations and you can't defend yourself?

    In any case, issues should be addressed immediately so its clear what the issue is. Not later with someone you are argumentative.

  95. Anonymous

    I’m about to do the same. This direct report has had five managers throughout the company and all had the same complaint

    argumentative

    thinks an assignment is optional

    sarcastic

    passive aggressive

    negative

    gossip spreader

    I’m the first manager with the confidence to confront her and put her on a plan. My own boss was afraid of her and managed her prior to me. Is this right? No. Is it the reality, yes.

    I think you need to take a look at yourself and think about what you are doing to cause this.

    The manager may have trouble with confrontation and that would explain their behavior during the call.

    Say it with me: it’s not always the managers fault.

    I am so sick of individual contributors putting it all on us. It contributes to a culture of entitled teams.

    You could be the problem.

  96. Ani Berberian

    It’s not always the managers’s fault, but it is when they are holding past incidents over their employee’s head. That’s called a grudge. If someone genuinely wants to work with management and wants feedback, that means they want to make changes, and are humbling themselves to make the necessary changes. However, your post is pretty vitriol and uncompromising which doesn’t make for a good manager in this situation.

    A manager who can’t look past former behaviors and mistakes of their employee will continue to use confirmation bias to examine every single word, look, or action that their employee says or does to confirm their opinion of them. People change and can change overnight.

  97. Michelle S.

    Exactly! Fully agreed! I’m so relieved that I’m not the only one who noticed.

  98. Anonymous

    If a manager doesn't address problems for months to years, and then skips over steps in the process to initiate a performance plan, there's something fishy going on.

  99. Michelle S.

    Exactly!

  100. Michelle S.

    She could be the problem but it doesn’t frankly sound like she is.
    You sound a little defensive, honestly. The same way this manager sounds in that meeting. You don’t ever take someone to a PIP unless it is well documented, recent (most of all) and you can back everything up with Documentation. There is no reason to be defensive or to get upset because it’s all professional and it’s all documented. The manager sounds highly toxic. Of course, we’re only getting one side but from what we’ve heard, it doesn’t seem like the employee at all. HR should be in that meeting, documenting everybody’s behavior. Because if a manager can’t appropriately and professionally counselor and coach employee, they don’t need to be in management. Say it with me… It’s not always the employees fault, either. It’s not professional, supportive language, is it?

  101. Anonymous

    Naturally, we are only hearing one, curated side of the story.

  102. Michelle S.

    And it should never take ‘confidence’ to bring an employee to counsel and coaching. You should never be confronting an employee. Clearly does sound like there has been weak managers in the past, so I can’t really blame the employee for being off track.

    It’s a manager’s job to manage and lead employees. Her past managers haven’t done that- because if they did, this wouldn’t be happening right now.. It’s confrontational, exactly how you sound in your response. unfortunately, you can’t bring up an employee‘s behavior of a year ago because if it was truly an issue, it would’ve been brought up in a healthy, non-toxic environment. So you can only talk about recent behavior, that’s best practice. so it doesn’t matter what all the other managers said, they didn’t act on it so it doesn’t exist if it’s not documented.

    The goal, as a good manager, is to coach employees back to health. Back to productivity. Because an employee who has been there for over a year, it can cost upwards of $10k-$60k to replace and train another person- depending on the position.

    So why wouldn’t you want to coach them and keep them? But it doesn’t sound like the case. Some people can’t be saved, but that’s why I was talking about your defensive language.

  103. Anonymous

    Well first I would document everything , and I would a lot of what othrr were a are saying

    however I think you would be better off trying to get to another team and away from this a manger

    judging from his behavior and agitation he is really angry I don’t see this ending well for you.

    I would look for another job , and I dont want to sound mean but he is not open to anything you say and sounds like he wants you out

  104. Jen Frischen

    I have a feeling that your "gut instinct" is telling you that this is a done deal and they are just checking the boxes. Listen to that instinct.

    Just be ready at any moment. They are just checking the boxes to let you go.

  105. Ani Berberian

    Document, document, document. I would get HR involved, especially if they are bringing up incidents from years’ past. Stay humble, unemotional and if you have a mentor at work or someone you trust, get them involved in your meetings as well.

  106. Anonymous

    HR is not your friend, and there should not be any trust for anyone in the organization after this happens. They don't want to get involved, and all friendships should from here on in be considered former friendships. Speaking from experience here!

  107. Michelle S.

    That’s the sad thing, HR should be your friend. As a Director of HR for years, I had a dual purpose. Of course I had to advocate for the company but my customer was also the employee. Because without your employees, there is no company. So HR should technically be your friend, they should be your advocate in your cheerleader and your support. So be careful using exclusive language. I know that that’s the case in some instances, but definitely not always.

  108. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    There are many many employees who realize the value of HR. For some reason, this board attracts the naysayers, negative and whiners.

  109. Anonymous

    I wish people would not assume all HR is like that. I am in HR management as well like the other poster who replied. Sometimes we try and are not able to do what is needed. I have been overruled before. We want to follow the rules and for most of us we really want a happy and engaged workforce. We want people to trust us, so that they can come to us if there is an issue. That does not mean I can fix everything, but I try. I have also left if the company is not doing the right thing. If I cannot get them to do the right thing, then I leave as well.

  110. Anonymous

    Something similar happened to me. But in my case, like someone else said, the boss wants to be in power (he got promoted after I left - to a senior position) and he can't have anyone disagree with him. The director above him is as clueless as they come and I never got to meet with him ever. You know he was fed whatever was passed up by the mgr.

    The telling issue is that one of my coworkers also left the company same day as I did, leaving one person left on the team. That was not planned at all. In IT where I worked, we are hired for the skills we bring to the table. So ridiculing staff for their expertise is counterproductive at best.

    HR said no one should be treated this way. But HR doesn't stick around long enough for anything to get fixed in that organization. So the narcs rule. Advice? Start looking for a new position where you are valued. Don't wait for this to turn around, it likely won't. Good luck.

  111. Anonymous

    Best advice I have heard on this before. If the turnover is high in HR, there is a good reason and something to be wary of. If they are all leaving quickly, I would be on the lookout. If they are not able to fix anything they will leave too.

  112. Anonymous

    I have to say I have been on both sides of the table. Mgr, and a DR.

    As a Mgr after consulting with HR, I was told the best option was a coaching plan, and to start looking for a replacement. We need to make sure everything is documented. We wanted to protect the company concerning unemployment.

    As a DR I was not offered a coaching plan, I was told that this was my last day, and 2 months of pay. Of course I had to sign a non-dis-closure agreement. I was told by my boss that this was training lessons, and we don’t terminate. We were a new team. Hence her new boss had an issue with me, and another team mate had an issue with me.

    Be thankful you have a few weeks to find a new position, and hopefully you get a package from your employer.

  113. Anonymous

    I was in a toxic job that took me 5 years to leave...

    1. Is there any truth to the feedback? Can you look inward and commit to any self-improvement? Any trainings>
    2. I'm an introvert but ended up being more reclusive as a coping mechanism...
    3. I escalated to HR but the reality is they work for the company so they're not really on your side, though they say they are neutral. At least issues were documented...
    4. My only advice is to try to stay in this role until you can obtain a new position. No one wants you unemployed.
  114. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Sometimes unemployed works to everyone's advantage since we are so short of candidates and this person could start immediately. No risk of counter offer...

    Get your references lined up however....

  115. Farah Bajwa

    It sounds to me like you have a "weak" manager, incapable of handling an employee who makes him think.

    Without warning or consultation, a previous employer changed my job. The rumor was they were trying to save me from a layoff. They moved me out of engineering and into Quality where I had no skills and sat me in a room of Buyers. Buyers were used to steam rolling the quality engineers so they made a fuss when I'd push back from them to complete their jobs before I took over. They complained to my boss who flew out to meet with me and didn't even tell me it was a "corrective action" meeting. Totally blind sided by the whole thing. Luckily this manager was willing to listen to my side and realized I was simply doing my job and not putting up with the crap. He asked for us to start over at that point.

    My point for sharing is that I think your manger is the buyers in my story. You've tried to meet with him and he's still being difficult. Can you bring in HR? or at least talk to HR privately to see what advise they can give?

  116. Anonymous

    HR works for the company! Please, let's stop pretending that they advocate for employees.

  117. Farah Bajwa

    Of course I haven't lost sight that HR is hired by the company but they are also obligated to do the right thing. So, first, rather than shun every idea as an immediate non-option, we see what paths we have available to us and try them. If the path of contacting HR proves fruitless or bias, then its time to decide on a different path.

  118. Anonymous

    HR's job is to make sure everything is in compliance. I wish people would stop telling employees to not go to HR. If they do not know, they cannot fix anything. It is in their best interest to fix what they can. They do not want the company sued more than anyone else. They may not be able to fix everything and sometimes their hands are tied, but they want to. Take it from someone that has worked in HR and tried to fix things.

  119. Anonymous

    Agree. Incredulous at the number of times advice is to "speak to HR." HR is there for senior leadership not the worker bees.

  120. Anonymous

    HR should be ensuring that the performance improvement plan guidelines are being met.
    If the goal is to document and defend any decision to terminate someone, there is still a need to actually make a plan. According to OP, the plan and/or actions are missing. To simply tell someone they are being coached without providing any concrete corrections to behavior, how is that a coaching plan? Not acceptable on part of manager or HR.

  121. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Of course they work for the company.

  122. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    You don't know if her manager is a weak manager, incapeable of handling an employee who makes him think. What we do know is that he probably is at the end of the line with her and brought in coaching to see if there is any way that she can be helped so that they do not have to let her go. And if they do let her go, I am certain that this has all been well documented. This is probably who she is so any chance that they can reverse this behavior is probably minimal so she should probably be looking for a new job.

  123. Michelle S.

    And at the end of the day, if you are terminated, sign the form and go professionally.
    Then, fight for your unemployment. If you have not had previous documentation or write ups, that is the leg that you have to stand on for an unlawful termination. Now while it may be lawful according to your state, it’s unlawful according to unemployment. Also depending on your state. But always fight for unemployment! Especially if there wasn’t a clear line of communication regarding possible termination.
    also, if you get to the point that you are concerned about being fired, be fired over quitting. If you quit, you will have no chance of unemployment benefits unless you can prove an extremely hostile work Environment, which is next to impossible. So don’t worry about future reference or anything. Your livelihood is the most important thing. The other details can be worked out

  124. Anonymous

    Unemployment is pretty much a given, very few companies will fight you on that - what you should fight for a reasonable severance package - the longer you've been with the company, the more you should get, and also ask them to cover your medical for X amount of time (at least a couple of months), again, dependent on how long you've been with the company. Good luck.

  125. Marlane Lord

    I was in HR and fought every unemployment claim that management felt was necessary. Luckily I agreed with management's call on that or I would have been in a pretty miserable position.

  126. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    I agree with this. This is good solid advice.

  127. Anonymous

    Your situation sounds somewhat familiar. I had worked for my company nearly eight years and was terminated earlier this year after a review of my performance improvement plan. Like your situation, my supervisor would bring up things from months and even years ago that had been resolved, but it was presented as a pattern of behavior and inconsistency on my part. Part of my performance improvement plan included attending counseling sessions through the company’s EAP program. After two sessions the counselor voiced the opinion that the supervisor seemed to have issues with me, not my work. She suggested I get HR involved (as it appeared based on examples I had provided) that I was being held to different, more stringent, standards than my peers. For example, I was written up for not having a report updated electronically. The electronic documentation had been suspended during COVID as the report also generated mileage reimbursement and our team had been designated to work from home during that time. The EAP counselor directed me to HR to dispute the write-ups and HR rep agreed that my case needed to be heard. HR organized a meeting between myself and my supervisor’s director. He heard my case and verbally agreed that the supervisor could do a better job of relating to me and disagreed with points detailed in the write-up. He said that we would work together to improve our relations. Unfortunately, within a week or so I received an extremely formal letter that upheld my supervisor’s write-up. Afterwards, my supervisor used any situation as an opportunity for write-up leading to termination. So despite eight years of service during which I received company awards for excellence in service, recognition in writing from my customers and internal colleagues, and exceeding measurable goals for which I received salary bonuses, I was terminated on the spot for not having a report updated when the supervisor asked to see it. Looking back I’m glad I advocated for myself, but I do wish I’d had more realistic expectations. The support of EAP, HR and the supervisor’s director gave me false hope that the situation would improve, but instead it created more intense scrutiny on the part of my supervisor. Taking issues with a supervisor to HR is not something I would pursue again.

  128. Anonymous

    You should sue for wrongful dismissal

  129. Dcre1977

    You can not always win, but realize that there were people on your side! Documenting may not have helped you but may help others down the road!

  130. Crystal Howell

    You still have rights for wrongful termination with notes from EAP counselor.

    Good you moved on, contact employment attorney for free consultation don't leave money on table.

  131. Anonymous

    I would be hesitant to do that because I would not want to have litigation against an employer on my record. I’m afraid it would cause future employers concern and limit my opportunities in the future. I imagine no company wants to hire someone they perceive as a “potential troublemaker”.

  132. Anonymous

    You have to stand up for yourself, sue them, how can that possibly be on your record?

    Go see an employment lawyer and see what your options are, but your days at that job are numbered.

  133. Anonymous

    I might ask for a transfer, if possible, and maybe very POLITELY suggest coaching and counselling for the manager. Sounds like he/she has confidence issues - especially if they are getting upset, and agitated, etc. You have to keep your cool at all times, do not show emotion, and state facts only. But keep your cool at all times. No facial expressions, nothing. Ask for a transfer.

  134. Anonymous

    I don't care how polite you are: suggesting that the manager get coaching and counseling will fast track your termination. Please do not listen to this awful advice unless your goal is to be immediately escorted out the front door of your office building. This will look like you're projecting your own deficiencies onto someone else rather than taking responsibility for your role in this declining work relationship.

  135. Anonymous

    Agreed! The optics of this advice is terrible!

  136. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Don't ask for the manager to be coached and counselled. A sure way to get yourself fired.

    This has probably been the whole issue...

  137. Anonymous

    Whether the issue is you or your manager, it sounds like your days are numbered. It's no l Ionger a healthy environment for anyone. Start looking for a new job.

  138. Anonymous

    They don’t like the way you communicate but can’t tell you what you are doing wrong and how to improve? You are in a lose-loae situation. What I really like about what you wrote is that you aren’t blaming someone else and are trying to take responsibility and improve. That is a great attitude! Plan for being let go. Update your resume. Make sure you have what you need for your job search. Hope for the best. Although leaving there may be for the best. Good luck

  139. Charlie Swift

    Beyond the apparent unfairness of this treatment... What a dreadful miss-use of the term "coaching"! An opportunity for confidential time with an independent, impartial expert with your best interests at heart would be a gift. This was a punishment.

  140. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Then she should to to a therapist. this coaching belongs to the company--not her. It is in their best interest to see if this can be saved. She needs to hire and pay for "her best interests." It is not a punishment--I think they are being very generous. They could have fired her.

  141. Anonymous

    Charlie this is standard HR practice, particular for companies as large as the OPs.

  142. Anonymous

    It doesn't matter. Time to look for a new job.

  143. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    I think it is great of your company to offer you coaching on appropriate behavior and the tools so that you can get along with your superiors. Many companies would just let you go. I rather suspect that this is not a new form of behavior for you and hopefully with this work therapy, you will learn how to express yourself in a less aggressive and combative way. They have probably been frustrated with this situation for some time. I would advise you to take their lead and more than likely, they will tell you the changes that you need to make in order to continue your employment there. Your boss may have been directed to participate in this and he/she may be at the end of the road with this long standing exchange. If I were to offer advice to you, I would say if you want to hang on to your job, follow their lead and let the coaches do their thing.

  144. Angela Lancaster

    It starts with Respect. Having respect towards your boss and your boss having respect towards you. A coaching plan is a wonderful tool. If used properly, it will help everyone understand their role in a workplace.

    Before anyone can grow, you need to have respect for each other so the suggestion are caring and fair. If not it is just a tool to abuse. Good luck

  145. Shelly Edwards

    I would start by really looking at your actions that perhaps led to this coaching plan. Was there a period of time when you were argumentative and disrespctful to your manager? Have you changed that behavior and what changes have you made? This will require self-analysis of your words and actions. You can also ask coworkers for their honest feedback on how you were and what changes they have seen. Come up with a list of what you have done to date to correct the issue. Then ask to sit down with your manager in a good frame of mind to review what changes you have made and ways you feel you can try to change it going forward. Then ask the manager again for specific examples in the last month or two of things you have done wrong or things they would like to see you improve. Make it clear that you want to keep your job and you are willing to work with them on the issues, but you need specific, measurable goals to attain in order to make sure you are on the right track. Be careful of your words and your tone during this discussion. Show respect and professionalism. Don't raise your voice and try to remain calm.

  146. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    I think this is a personality issue.

  147. Anonymous

    I’m curious, what do you mean by personality issue? Is a personality issue also a performance issue?

  148. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    She was written up as being argumentative and questioning every decision which is a personality issue that can be extremely annoying . Sometimes a strong personality issue is as distructive to one's career as underperforming. Is it a right to fire state?

    It obviously has reached to point to bring her in for career coaching. Not knowing anything about the industry or the state it is hard to tell but generally speaking, this type of personality on a team can be very exhausting.

  149. Sharmil McKee

    I am sorry you were put in this awful situation. Some managers really don't know how to manage. If this coaching plan doesn't have objective, measurable outcomes, then it wasn't written in good faith. Unless you have an advocate higher in the company with power who can protect your job from this manager, it's time to negotiate a severance. Also, I recommend therapy to deal with the unexpected loss, unfairness and injustice of this situation. Good luck.

  150. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    This is a last ditch effort before they fire her.

  151. Terrie McWhorter

    Do you see your "manager" as a leader? Just because someone is labeled a manager does not make them a great leader. People should be inspired to speak up and question things. There should be transparency in expectations BOTH WAYS. A coaching plan should involve someone to assist you in becoming better at whatever...find trainings that you want to attend on communication AND on leadership and submit that to them. Hope this helps

  152. Daniela Cojita

    Being that I can see the argument for both sides I can tell you this: it is very hard to work with employees that question everything. Dissecting the information and having to justify decisions at every step is time-consuming and alters deadlines.

    At the same time, it is also very hard for an employee to perform their job without understanding the end goal and why things are done in a certain way; asking questions as to "why" speaks volumes about your level of commitment to your job as long as those questions are backed by good intentions, respectful and asked in the right context. This being said, a working relationship is like a dance. At times, you have to trust your partner in leading you - the key word is trust.

    And this lands me on what I think is the main issue: there is no trust between you and your leadership. Maybe both parties need to work on that first, then address communication. The initiative to identify this issue and start building the right report lies with your management first, but you can always have the initiative as long as it comes from a place of respect and desire to improve it. Alternatively, if you feel all bridges are broken, you can walk away.

  153. Lisa Bracco Spinelli

    This manager is clearly done with you, even if their perception of you is off. If they have nothing good to say and are looking years back for negative interactions...this won't end well. I hope you're job searching.

  154. Anonymous

    Did the the manager offer balanced feedback including neutral and positive feedback?

  155. Gaby Cadena

    Sometimes leaders can focus their energy on employees rather than on themselves.
    It sounds like your boss may need some coaching and help too with communicating effectively. If they have given you the option to work with a coach, first make sure the match will work, and if so, take advantage! Working with a coach can help you grow and see things differently. This is helpful when stuck in difficult situations in which you may feel like there's no way out or feel targeted.
    Asking many questions can help you understand how coaching can benefit you and give you an idea of how to keep your job and be satisfied. If you would like more info or brainstorm more, reach out, I'd love to help and hear your story.

  156. Anonymous

    Honest question for the OP. Prior to this coaching plan, did you respect your manager? Did you feel as though they knew what they were doing?

    What was your perception prior to this event?

    Have you shared this opinion with others?

  157. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    I think they just need for you to knock it off. Show them that you can take direction and that you understand the first time you have been told.

  158. S.

    Be humble, be teachable....

  159. Anonymous

    To a boss who's agitated and insulting?

  160. Anonymous

    Yes because you're dealing with an unreasonable person psaid you know yourself and just keep looking and being your best self and find another job or apply for a transfer

  161. Anonymous

    This is pretty horrible and I do not see how you can keep your job. Please be looking now as these things do not usually end well. Also please do some self examining on how you speak to people . I have had difficult managers and no matter what was coming down, I always remembered that they were my boss and I treated them with respect. Respect and being polite goes a long ways in all situations . Best wishes and use this as a learning experience.

  162. Samantha Thompson

    Honestly, if they're not giving you recent examples, haven't given you feedback on how to improve, and became so agitated, it could possibly be because your boss established a bias against you early on and never got over it. Or recently became biased against you for some reason. I'm sorry I've never been on a coaching plan before, but maybe go back to your boss's manager to ask what's expected of you.

  163. Meghan B

    I find the responses to this post absolutely fascinating.

    Most people responding are projecting their biases and personal experiences SO HARD.

    I've been the employee with a very direct style of communication that clashed with a very indirect style of communication of my supervisor. (Both of us needed to adjust to make it work, btw.)

    I've been the employee with an absolute crap boss who was threatened by my abilities and knowledge, and they sought out ways to undermine and attack me. This has happened a couple of times - in one situation they made themselves known to higher-ups and were ousted, in the other situation I got out of the toxic situation as quickly as I was able.

    I've been a co-worker of someone who was truly abrasive and creating discord in a work environment and watched the supervisor try and manage the situation with coaching, verbal warnings, write-ups, and PIPs and finally let the person go. (I've been lucky as a manager to not have to deal with this so far.) And yes, the abrasive employee was completely blind to their contribution to the issue.

    So yes, any one of these scenarios (or a combination) could be at play here. What's absolutely fascinating is the projection and assumption on the part of some of the responses.

    To the OP: In my experience, once a PIP or coaching plan is in play, the chances of remaining in that position - or even with that company - is slim to none. In my almost 30 years in corporate environments, I've only seen 2 or 3 people manage to pull a PIP situation out successfully and keep their jobs.

    You do need to take a hard look at your communication style and see what you may be contributing to this situation. Has anything like this ever been mentioned by other co-workers or supervisors? Sometimes it's not necessarily that you're wrong, but your style of communication doesn't work well with a particular person because of their style, but one aspect of professional communication is adapting your communication style as needed to work with other people. Even if this situation is not salvageable, it's worth looking at for future work environments.

    If you want to try, involve HR to ensure that you're following the absolute letter of the law about the requirements of your coaching plan. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. If you have a meeting with anyone, follow it up with an email summarizing what was discussed and a sentence to the effect of "I understand our conversation to say XYZ, please correct anything I have misunderstood." Try to ask any questions in writing instead of verbally, and with as neutral of language as possible. And consider trying to move to another department as soon as you're allowed (most transfers are blocked for most companies while under a PIP).

    Get your resume brushed up and start making connections with recruiters and browsing job boards regardless because there's a good chance you're going to get fired regardless. You may even get an offer for a better situation and have an out from this situation which sounds fairly toxic (for whatever reason).

    As for HR - yes, they work for the company and they are not your friends. HOWEVER, *most* HR people are there to make sure the company is acting according to the law, and in a manner that does not open them up for legal action. And most companies realize that employee retention and morale is good for the company, and they are motivated to resolve issues fairly. Don't count on them to act on your behalf, and don't count on them having final say in anything, but they are usually acting as neutral umpires.

  164. JoBeth Baker

    Very constructive response

  165. Eliana C Coria

    What a well elaborated, unbiased and helpful response.

    Thank you for this. I am taking notes myself. I have been lucky to never have encountered a boss or an employee which I found confrontative but i always think what would I do in that situation. BTW, this is my first comment in years, just so you know how important I think your response is for the OP.

  166. Anonymous

    The responses will be biased because each person is responding from their lived experiences. It’s up to the OP to sift through and decide what is relevant for them.

  167. Meghan B

    Oh, I 100% agree that people respond from their lived experiences - I absolutely did that as well. What I'm fascinated by are the assumptions some people are projecting onto the OP's situation based on their biases.

  168. Anonymous

    It sounds like your boss is intimidated by you. It's probably a good idea to create an exit plan.

  169. Anonymous

    I could not agree more.
    And in this type of situation, you often cannot win. I was in a similar situation as a health care provider about 5 years ago. My manager knew nothing about medicine ..Was an inept and caught in numerous lies frequently. I was told that I needed to learn to manage her up ,which completely appalled me considering my role as a healthcare provider and her level of inadequacy. However, I persisted in being quiet at meetings, respectful et cetera. ..at all times. Unfortunately I think she continued to feel intimidated by my knowledge base , even though I remained completely silent. I could spend an hour telling you the ludicrous things that she did but suffice it to say that To remain quiet and under the radar Is your only strategy with a manager like this period you will not win so don't even try to talk reason into the situation. Let your manager win in every conversation. And find a way to leave

  170. Anonymous

    Sadly, I was confronted with this very same thing a few weeks ago after my mother died.
    I would contact the EEOC in your state. In agreement with everyone else, start to create that exit plan. Is there anyone else you know in the company? Can you move to a new position in a new department? If not, get that resume ready to go. Start looking. Start talking. Get out of there. In the mean time, force their hand by providing concrete, recent examples of this supposed behavior. Their agitated because they it’s BS or else this would’ve been brought up long ago.

  171. Vanda Lee

    You need to FU these meetings in writing and ASK for clear steps in what is expected of you. My guess is that it may be "impossible" to be successful ... that's the typical way these things work. In the meantime, start looking for a new position because the likeliness of this working relationship being repaired is low. Do you really want to work for this manager when they act like this in a "coaching" meeting? I would also take a good look at yourself and look for improvement on communication for your next role - some of this may be on you or it just could be a personality conflict because they feel like you are questioning their inadequacies - either way, it's not good for the long term. I do, based on personal experience, urge you to document EVERYTHING in writing and stand your ground by explaining your expectations in a professional manner. For example - I would respond to the insults in the meeting and copy the additional manager. You may end up leaving but leave with your head high!

  172. Anonymous

    This JUST happened to me as well. I was with my company for 4 years, and got a new manager 7 months ago. She did not like me from the moment she started. I was the unofficial interim manager until she was hired, and most of my team wanted me to remain in the role. I think she sensed that, but that is just my opinion. When she started, I had just returned from surgery for cancer. In my first meeting back, she did not even acknowledge my cancer diagnosis or anything. She asked my teammates to not go to me with any questions, and to send them her way only. This awkward situation continued, and quite honestly it made me no longer like my job. I started Cc’ing her boss on all interactions with her. At the beginning of September, my kids returned to school and brought home COVID. I was OOO for a week, and the day after I returned she placed me on a PIP. I immediately pulled data and questioned her motives, as I was her top performer, so clearly a PIP was not needed. She did not back down. I refused to sign the PIP, but she got approval for it all the way up. I told her I felt that this was her way to fire me, and she denied it and even tried to say that it was a valuable coaching tool that could get me “back on track”. I responded that I didn’t understand why I needed to “get back on track”, that I was the longest tenured person and top performer. The first week of October, she let me go via email. I actually found out when she emailed my team and told them I was no longer working there. I went to her boss with no response, and contacted HR who stated that this was approved “up the chain” and a done deal. I said why wouldn’t you ask your employee of four years, that stayed through difficult and rough times when most of the staff bailed, and she said it was a done deal. I emailed my manager’s manager, the head of HR, and the President of my company my side of the story. I was blocked from my email before I was notified I was fired, so I did not have anything to back up what I was saying, but did refer them to specific email exchanges. I received a severance that was nothing more than a slap in the face. I fought the severance and got more, but nothing as I deserved. No one did anything to side with me, even after 4 years of hard-work, dedication, and going above and beyond. The best part was she quite for a new job the day after she fired me. I found out her boss was her previous boss of 8 years and her personal friend that had referred her into the position in the first place. I didn’t have a shot. Now in one of the worst markets, I am unemployed, and applying for jobs that have 600 applications to each. It was awful to go out that way and have everyone turn their back. I was highly respected while I was there and a go-to person for new employees and for help with difficult questions and problems. You can’t let this get you down, but it is hard to see the positive. I feel for you, but think updating your resume is probably the best course of action just in case. It’s sad, and quite unfair, but I could not find anyone that would help and it was quite humbling to see all that turned their backs. Wishing you the best of luck, and hoping you find an outcome that does not end like mine.

  173. Anonymous

    i had a similar situation and i was "the" top performer (I even had letters from prior managers thanking me). got into a similar situation , was terminated without cause or notice. horrible experience. It happens. I've become hardened to corporate America thru all of this . I am so sorry, but i know that you (above ^^) are speaking truth.

  174. Anonymous

    Get references if you can and start looking. One time I could have been a whistleblower. If so I would have needed to move to get another job bc of the city I live in. Bc I asked questions I was suddenly on probation after 3 years and a week after my bosses vacation I was gone. Being honest is NOT the best policy in my case!

  175. Coach Nancie Kay Shuman

    As a Coach, I don' think I would take on this job. It sounds as though this is more a them problem than a you problem.

    Us the Coaching appointments to assist in creating clear plans of action, questions to ask, alternative ways of communicating (ie, email, texts, etc,) for now. Also, if you like the company, explore if there might be a different department or location which may work for you.

    Good luck!

  176. Marcia

    I'm sorry to hear your plight. Maybe this is the time to start that business you've been thinking of doing.

  177. Anonymous

    Ladies, as I posted earlier, I am now in the same position as the OP and as many of you. My heart goes out to the OP. Thank you for letting me share. I stand in solidarity with all who’ve been through this or currently in this painful part of their lives.

  178. Anonymous

    I work in an environment like this. You are not alone. We might even work in the same organization--LOL. I've experienced all that you've said and more. I hate my job, but I will not leave without another.

    Bottom line: in any situation, we teach people how to treat us. Respect and courtesy are not optional or just for a few who may hold certain titles. Battling egos is tough. Bullies are insecure and manipulators are self-serving. I could share horror stories of some of the things my director has said to me. And, after meeting him at his point of understanding, I had to determine what was important to and for me.

    Recommendation: Document what is happening to you, examine your actions, adjust where you can, and ask your supervisor what he thinks his responsibility is to you or the people he employs or supervises. In the days when I worked for people who actually knew what leadership and professionalism were, I learned that an employee's success or failure is partly the responsibility of the supervisor; it is a shared endeavor.

    Please do not allow your value or worth to be defined by them. I've struggled with that. But I've come to realize that I work with bullies, and bullies are insecure and manipulative. As one who is not easily intimated, I am often viewed as confrontational and argumentative. In fact, I hate confrontation, but I do not run from it. I work with people who don't like to be questioned, even though questions are warranted and answers provide clarity. When people can't answer or take responsibility, it's the other person's fault.

    If you are a person of faith, lean on that for your worth and guidance for how you should proceed or maneuver through the coaching process. We all have boundaries, make yours clear and stick to them. Find a place and people who see your value. Remember, wherever you go, your beliefs, your values, your personality, and personal preferences/beliefs also go. Examine if this is the place for you for the long term or a stepping stone to a better place.

  179. Anonymous

    My workplace says you are in charge of your career and success — and that is a reflection on the workplaces we are in. Back then yes the manager was more paternalistic and had the ability to take responsibility for his full team in a more autonomous way. These days managers report into steeper and steeper levels of checks and balances and much of what they do is not their choice. Your success or failure at work is then positioned as your choice. Get in line or get out. No loyalty.

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