Good Morning!

Anonymous

January 9,2023 at 3:46PM UTC

Welcome to Fairygodboss!

We’re the largest online career community helping women achieve their career goals. Gain access to articles, jobs, events, and a supportive network of women and allies. Membership is free, always.

Good Morning!

We have two people in our office that shade the entire culture. They are beyond Debbie downers. They are beyond even negative Nancy's. One of them even admitted that they are the queen B---, and was proud of it. I am the HR person, and I have went to leadership and so has other people. Yet, they allow their bad behavior to continue. This is a small company of 30 EE"s and these two ee's have been here from the beginning which means that they have a lot of knowledge which they also hoard and do not share with other staff members. I have no idea what to do, because it has already caused one employee to quit, luckily they had an opening in a different area where this employee could work without the other two EE's interfering. We have another that is on edge about to quit and she is such a nice lady but it is causing her to behave in a way that is uncharacteristic of her. I would love to hear from someone on the outside. Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

Why women love us:

Daily articles on career topics
Jobs at companies dedicated to hiring more women
Advice and support from an authentic community
Events that help you level up in your career
Free membership, always

50 comments

Share your insight

Join an authentic community that helps women support each other at work. Share your professional experience or ask for advice — you can even post anonymously.

50 Comments

Join the conversation

AnonymousJanuary 9,2023 at 5:33PM UTC
As the HR person it's incumbent upon you to impart basics of culture to the leadership team. If they don't listen to you or see the need for change, you should be looking elsewhere. HR is not a follower, it's a leader and you should be leading the charge for change management
Lesa Edwards, Career Coach & Master Resume WriterJanuary 9,2023 at 6:22PM UTC
Well said!
AnonymousJanuary 9,2023 at 6:03PM UTC
Honestly, if leadership won't address the behavior then it is actually an accepted culture. These 2 offenders are emboldened by the culture and have amassed a kind of power that feeds it.
Until there are lawsuits or legal claims with the labor board there is little you can do but document the incidents and keep it in your updates and 1 on 1s. Toxic culture is nit illegal in and of itself. Only when it crosses the line to harassment or discrimination and the victim actually files against the company will it rise to the level of actionable.
In the meantime keep documentation and written proof that leadership was aware.
Echo AlexzanderJanuary 9,2023 at 6:44PM UTC
There are people that are negative, and there are cancers that infect corporations and spread. I agree with the other commenter that if the organization is unwilling to shift its culture, this might not be the best place for you to invest more of your career and talents.
AnonymousJanuary 9,2023 at 7:44PM UTC
I am the HR manager where I work - I have seen things like this happen before so I work with the leaders to ensure that the bad behavior is addressed appropriately and documented correctly. Sometimes that means getting things started for them as every manager does not know how to do this correctly. There is documentation then there is appropriate documentation to help protect the business and the employee (progressive discipline to give the employee a chance to turn it around).
I saw a previous person post that this is the culture at your business, sure, however YOU are the one that can change that culture for the better.
I hope you get this figured out!
AnonymousJanuary 17,2023 at 9:52PM UTC
As I posted to someone else: Unfortunately, if leadership does not agree her hands may be tied. I encountered something similar and told my leadership about an issue and that an employee had mentioned suing the company. I was told to know my place. I said fine and I quit. My place was to be treated with respect. We were then sued and lost. Before me they had gone through 3 HR managers in a year.
We do not always have the power to do what is right or needed. However, we often get the blame. One thing, I have seen and also shared on here is that if HR turnover is high that is a huge red flag. If we cannot enact change, we will leave.
AnonymousJanuary 9,2023 at 9:01PM UTC
Sound like my previous company I worked for all the way down to your comments about their knowledge and being there since the beginning.
If you do not step up to the plate and set the expectations then they will drive everyone out. This company will eventually have a reputation and won’t be able to fill roles with quality employees.
I’m saying this nicely, stop being part of the problem and be the solution. you may find you have many other employees that are far more valuable and bring more to the table than the ones you speak of.
AnonymousJanuary 17,2023 at 9:50PM UTC
Unfortunately, if leadership does not agree her hands may be tied. I encountered something similar and told my leadership about an issue and that an employee had mentioned suing the company. I was told to know my place. I said fine and I quit. My place was to be treated with respect. We were then sued and lost. Before me they had gone through 3 HR managers in a year.
We do not always have the power to do what is right or needed. However, we often get the blame. One thing, I have seen and also shared on here is that if HR turnover is high that is a huge red flag. If we cannot enact change, we will leave.
AnonymousJanuary 10,2023 at 2:05PM UTC
If you’ve gone to the leadership in your company and nothing happened, you have your answer. I wouldn’t waste any more time or resources on this company. Start looking elsewhere. And I might add, if losing several employees as a direct result of these toxic employees isn’t a big enough wake-up call to the leadership in your company, then they deserve whatever the future holds.
AnonymousJanuary 10,2023 at 2:36PM UTC
How long have you been there? If you have employees driving other employees out the door management is aware and doing nothing about it, well - what else can you do? Stick around and try to fix the situation when you know full well it won't until those two are gone? Or find something better for you. It's not easy, but nor is it easy to work in an environment where you know certain people seem to get away with murder without repercussion. Been there done that...it's not fun.
AnonymousJanuary 10,2023 at 7:05PM UTC
I have only been here 7 months. I have been looking for another position. I have had a few interviews but no offers yet. I have been battling illness the last few months, so I have not looked in a few weeks. I was thinking the same thing but hoped maybe I missed something. One of the leaders seemed to have his head on straight but the VP is very unprofessional and allows a lot of this bad behavior to continue. They are related so I doubt he will ever let him go.
tamara williamsJanuary 11,2023 at 1:32PM UTC
Hello, I’m sorry that you have to endure that toxic behavior. The top leaders be aware they don’t care cause they bring in large revenue. It will take me to write 10 page paper to write about things I experience at my last job. That’s why I resign they were heated because I was their top performer. If I were you I would start looking for me another job.
GirlBossanova934974January 11,2023 at 1:46PM UTC
EE= I assume means Electrical Engineer. I was a EE for many years and worked for a few TECH companies. I was a Council Chair for IEEE for half a dozen years. In the companies where I worked, there were always a few older workers who were a bit salty. IEEE was just as bad or worse where big egos were always running around. NOTE: Admitting you are the Queen "B" in front of HR shows you how bad things are at your company. The big problem here is NOT the DOWNER attitude! NO! The big problem here is that management has let so much knowledge sit with 2 people and not insist that other workers be trained or work with these 2 senior people. As the HR person, you should go to your management and get them to agree to a program where these 2 senior people start transferring knowledge etc. This can be done via weekly ZOOM calls or actually training someone else to do parts of their jobs. The successful engineering orgs I worked at, did this! This will solve the root of the problem. If management cannot agree to that, you as many others have stated on this thread, start applying elsewhere. Cross training is the issue here.
Eric TurockJanuary 11,2023 at 2:00PM UTC
This: "NOTE: Admitting you are the Queen "B" in front of HR shows you how bad things are at your company. "
If you can't get upper management on board, you're wasting your time. It's worth trying, but you've already done that. Complaints won't matter. If you can show that they are affecting the bottom line you might have a chance. Best advice is to start looking elsewhere for a better situation. It's very rare that HR needs to fight this kind of battle.
CJB62January 11,2023 at 2:02PM UTC
EE - HR acronym for employee or employees.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 7:40PM UTC
Employee
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 1:54PM UTC
I know from a very bad experience if upper management does not want to deal with toxic behavior after you've bought it to their attention this is now a dead end. These employees might bring in a lot of business or revenue. In my case one abusive person was protected for this reason. I too was an HR contact that alerted the company, and I was the one who ended up having to leave. My advice would be to look for another job, and in the meantime avoid this issue as much as you can. You've done what was right and can be proud of yourself. Now you deserve a better situation.
Jenny Cox, PHRJanuary 11,2023 at 2:05PM UTC
Some great insight has already been shared in the comments. Since Fairygodboss is a community designed for women, I feel compelled to share a gentle reminder - terms like "Debbie Downer" and "negative nancy" associate female names with negative traits. Language is powerful. When we choose phrases like these, we are maintaining an environment that minimizes women and propagating caricatures that diminish our female colleagues. Let's all work to neutralize these phrases or better yet find other ways to describe undesired behaviors.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 2:16PM UTC
Sometimes phrases like that are needed.
It wasn’t said to these Co-workers. It was said to show how these Co-workers behave.
These Co-workers minimized themselves with their own behavior.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 3:36PM UTC
What would be the term for a male doing the same behavior then? If none, consider the use of these terms and the power of their contribution to reinforcing sexist stereotypes of women in the work place. Misogyny from "inside the house" is never "needed," nor professional.
Jenny Cox, PHRJanuary 11,2023 at 11:05PM UTC
I would encourage you to think about if these phrases are absolutely needed. You can paint the same picture by simply saying that a person has a very negative demeanor or is constantly criticizing and leave the gender leaning names completely out. It's not demeaning to the people you are talking about - it's associating negative behaviors with traditionally female sounding names. It's harmful to all women.
It was just a gentle nudge and certainly not intended to imply that you were intentionally trying to diminish women in the workplace. There are some really fascinating publications on this topic and how these phrases that have been around for decades came to pass and some great alternatives.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 7:43PM UTC
I truly did not intend any diminishment, the amount of adjectives I would need to explain their toxic behavior would have taken a novel. That was the easiest way to explain it, most people have heard those phrases.
Jenny Cox, PHRJanuary 11,2023 at 11:03PM UTC
Oh yes I agree most people have heard those phrases. So much so that it's unfortunately commonplace. I find myself using these phrases out of habit as well.
It was just a gentle nudge and certainly not intended to imply that you were intentionally trying to diminish women in the workplace. There are some really fascinating publications on this topic and how these phrases that have been around for decades came to pass and some great alternatives.
Rhonda RoyalJanuary 11,2023 at 2:15PM UTC
OMG! What a toxic work environment you’re in. Upper mgrs. aren’t going to do anything more than they’ve already done—so it’s up to you! Say a teary goodbye to the workers (not those bitches) Send out your resumes and hope for the best, this situation goes beyond what you can do! Best of LUCK to you!
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 2:24PM UTC
If you see others, behaving uncharacteristically, that could potentially be you next. I stayed in a very difficult working environment for too long, at that point, I didn’t even recognize my own behavior. I’m not saying run, but it might be wise to get the résumé in order. Sometimes those tenured employees just make it too difficult. If you think upper management will listen, share your thoughts with someone you have confidence in, but be sure to understand what the possible outcomes could be. Thoughts coming your way.
Shelly EdwardsJanuary 11,2023 at 2:27PM UTC
This sounds like a very toxic environment and it will likely lead to additional employee exits as long as it is allowed to continue. Unfortunately without leadership buy-in, your hands are pretty tied. Have you spoken with leadership regarding the financial impact of this toxic behavior? I would include loss of productivity, hiring costs to replace exiting employees, training costs for tue new employees, and the hit to employee morale as well as changes in the culture and attitudes of your other employees in tue discussion. Do the leaders know that she calls herself Queen Bee? If it’s their company, they may not like that she acts as though it belongs to her. If you speak to them about all of these things and they still don’t respond, there is not much you can do but document their actions and the effect they have on others.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 2:42PM UTC
I Agree with quantifying the cost(s) associated with their behavior. I would also include what a lawsuit for allowing /creating a hostile work environment would cost.
Until they can see the hit to the bottom line - it doesn't sound like they are vested in change based on perceived (actual) bad behavior.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 2:41PM UTC
If you are the HR person, then you have a job to do. I would sit down individually with each of these employees and address their behavior with concise examples of what they did, are doing, why it is inappropriate, the negative impact to morale and productivity, and simply state that these behaviours will no longer be tolerated." Let them know their files are documented. Tenure is not some "right to passage" to behave badly, it is a "right of passage" to bring others up in the workplace to take your place when the time comes. Leadership's expectation is that you do your job. I would also respond to she who is proud to be known as Queen B----- that that is not a compliment and you do not want to hear that in the workplace again. IF you believe your job will be in jeopardy for DOING your job, then certainly put the resumes out there and look to leave.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 3:17PM UTC
Unfortunately, I don't believe she is in a position to do this if she doesn't have management in her corner. Trust me. I have had my hands slapped for this.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 3:20PM UTC
I've also been there. I would try the "come to Jesus call" but know you might get backlash from mgmt. If you do, then you'll know your next step is to leave.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 7:47PM UTC
Sadly I am treated more like a secretary than an HR leader. If I did what you are suggested OMG I would probably be physically harmed. The leaders do not even include me when they discuss an issue with an employee. I am the first HR person they have ever had. They really do not understand HR's true role. I have tried over and over again explaining it and again and again I am shut down. Heck half the time I am not even including in the recruiting of the employees.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 10:41PM UTC
I'd be looking for another job. Life is too short to be miserable and have no support in your job-- a place where you spend 2080+/- per year!!!
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 2:59PM UTC
Have a "Come to Meet Jesus Meeting' with all of them together and pass out th Employee Handbook with all guidance and behavior guidelines that they are expected to adhere to. Advise them that you will be documenting everything and will terminate any employee that gets logged more than 3 incidents. Of course you need upper management approval to impose these guidelins and standards.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 7:49PM UTC
The handbook only addresses behavior towards customers not employees. I have brought up adding a workplace violence policy and they do not want to do that. I doubt seriously that they would be game for this. I agree completely. They do not even say the word terminate in the handbook.
Muhammad BaaithJanuary 11,2023 at 3:29PM UTC
why does it have to be a come to "Jesus Meeting" if they're not Christians then maybe that approach won't work. How about a straight talk meeting with the guidelines of the company?
RachelJanuary 11,2023 at 4:14PM UTC
When you tell someone they need to have a "come to Jesus" moment, it doesn't mean you literally think they should convert to Christianity. It's just a metaphor; it means that it's time to have a serious conversation about their behavior - in other words, doing exactly what you suggest. It's like saying they need to have it made clear to them that their behavior is unacceptable and they need to change or else.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 4:05PM UTC
I agree with the other commenters, use that HR on your name and check those employees by warning them. For every toxic Executive that gets away with being oppressive, the workplace will then become one of the other companies right now being left with high turn over rates and low ratings online and you will end up looking for another job because those executive will run everyone sane out the building. so many companies are shutting down right now due to behaviors like this.
Jamie CabralJanuary 11,2023 at 4:26PM UTC
This gives me PTSD from some terrible work environments I've worked in. I worked in a very clicky environment. We had to split the click, and we did this at team meetings and team-building activities. Without directly isolating them we asked everyone to work or sit next to someone they don't directly work with. We used it as a social experiment but our goal was to disband the click and encourage cross-departmental teamwork. Unless your Queen B is the CEO she needs a reality check and get her and her minion's attitude nipped in the bud. Attitude is infectious and they are contaminating. The good news is the majority of your culture is not these 2. You have received a lot of great advice. All I'd add is to make it known to those in distress that this situation is being addressed. People will stay if they feel heard and see action. If they think their concerns are falling on deaf ears they will go elsewhere.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 7:50PM UTC
One of our leaders thinks that people want to be heard, but he does nothing about what he hears, and has not intention of doing anything.
KathrynJanuary 11,2023 at 4:57PM UTC
I had this issue, And when I went to leadership they said but they know so much. So I did a spreadsheet on how much it cost to retrain after losing employees in black and white I showed them they were losing money by continually having to train because of the attitude. Once they were on my side, I did team building and made them participate and made sure they never worked together. I rearranged seating to include more desk or space or some such and made sure they were on opposite ends of the office. Then I added treatment of others in our handbook. This made them uncomfortable but eventually they got over themselves and that is what they are seeking is the spotlight. When I also began to highlight people who were doing good things out of the office (I have three pound volunteers and one school volunteer) I make a big deal of this and ignore the antics of the two women who want attention. It is basically a way to get more attention quit giving them that and things tend to die off
Kristie WhiteJanuary 11,2023 at 6:51PM UTC
I love the advice from Kathryn below. It's an excellent approach. If you can't get management on your side, then you will have to use a similar approach to change the behavior. I myself would struggle with the patience to execute her strategy though. Having been involved with business analysis for many years, I might approach it differently. I would begin to document their knowledge and business processes, because eventually you are going to need them anyway and this will reduce their ability to hold the company hostage. I have seen multiple scenarios where business knowledge is lost because an employee leaves and there is no documentation. This is a train wreck waiting to happen - but companies ALWAYS work through it, the world doesn't stop turning. Also by beginning that process, you are putting them both on notice without putting them on notice. You are communicating that they can be replaced. And don't think they won't withhold information or misrepresent - they will, thinking they are protecting their jobs. This approach is more hard line, but completely defensible. You tell management that you are concerned about how much information they have that is not documented and you are working to protect them from business disruption should one of these employees leave. It's best practice. And while you are documenting, I would casually emphasize how much you are planning to cross-train on all positions to prepare against business interruption and you expect all employees to participate. I would also emphasize collaboration and respect for co-workers as being part of the expectations of all employees. They will hear you when their jobs are threatened. And then if they can't adjust their behavior, you can tell management that most of their knowledge has been documented. I would sell this idea to management so you can gain the upper hand.
Anita Gail FarrisJanuary 11,2023 at 7:38PM UTC
What about having the employees do the writing of the company processes they are holding "hostage" they will feel important and perhaps recognize that their behaviors are not ok. You can use it as a matter of development of internal job descriptions, etc. I was always taught that everyone is replaceable and thus you need to work with everyone as if they are your replacements so developing of a "manual' of sorts works.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 8:29PM UTC
Are the 2 problem employees in a leadership role? Are they leads? Do the problem employees have valid points, but poor delivery thereby turning critique into shade? Is their senority respected and were they consulted about the ways the culture has changed since they started? Do they get performance evaluations? Have they been confronted about their behaviors?
Sharon GrehanJanuary 11,2023 at 11:03PM UTC
In an HR position, do you have the authority to set guidance on expected behaviors? If you want to change how people act, you need to change the definition of success. The 'how' needs to be as important as the 'what'. If these employees know that their current approach will result in negative year end reviews it may help s
DanaJanuary 11,2023 at 11:09PM UTC
There are a lot of good, positive responses here on this thread. The only thing I would add is that we unfortunately live in a very litigious society at this time so my first thought is document, document and document EVERYTHING. Sometimes people are just looking for ways to sue. I hope that is not the case here though.
AnonymousJanuary 19,2023 at 2:16PM UTC
Hell yeah! I document everything and let me tell you its helps alot. always keep records of everything! I have been in corporate america for 15 years I learned the hardware why you always record how your coworkers of all types interact with you.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2023 at 11:41PM UTC
I work on a team of two other people. Neither of the other two are nice. In fact, they are so mean, they're getting a really bad rep with other EE's. One of them is so confident that nothing will be done, she's even copied the boss on emails to me that were so out of line, I would have fired her on the spot had I been the manager. My boss's advice? Maybe there's another position in the company that would be easier to deal with, these two know too much to let them go. I'm beyond baffled. Making the one being bullied leave because the bullies have alot of head knowledge?
AnonymousJanuary 12,2023 at 3:56AM UTC
I don't understand why you're baffled. The ones with the upper hand will always call the shots. You can certainly try and fight them but most of the time you'll find they will win anyway. It's a dynamic that is accepted and I don't think they are there due to knowledge of where the bodies are buried.
AnonymousJanuary 17,2023 at 10:13PM UTC
Unfortunately, I have been in a similar situation. I ended up leaving as I could not force them to do what was needed. If your leadership does not buy into the idea of a healthy work environment and that HR needs a seat at the table, you may have to leave. I wanted to change things for the better so badly, but in the end the leadership did not care. I know we in HR often get the blame for a bad company, but I truly understand that sometimes we cannot change what needs to be changed. The company I worked for used to joke with the HR manager before me that they did not really do or have HR and HR did not matter. They also made the comment to me, "well, that is why we have lawyers on retainer."
I would suggest some of the things listed below that deal with monetary figures. They may not care about culture. If they see employees as a revolving door, then numbers might be able to attract their attention to change. But I feel for you, as I have been there. My health is a lot better now that I am gone. The stress gets to you after awhile.
Gregory HolubJanuary 19,2023 at 3:54PM UTC
Nope, you are on point I left an organization 7 months ago with a very similar story. status quo and the problem people had been there the longest and the director basically listens to them alone and the input of others is muted especially if queen bee wants it that way. with statements, we have always done it this way. or that is too hard I don't want to change to modern ways of doing business. They both created microaggressions against our workers of color which were addressed but swept under the rug. instead of training on how our organization could be more culturally aware of each other to better support we trained on ageism so she did not feel attacked. myself and 11 others have left 6 were persons of color who were not supported or taken care of in their roles. 1 had been with the organization for 32 years and left 3 of us 6 years the rest were 2-3 years and could not deal with it anymore. So if the culture is changing and not listening to all of its members with a growth mindset and being culturally aware it is time to leave. I wish you all the best and hope you find a new opportunity that supports you better than this organization did.