How do I get out of being their secretary, when my title is engineer?

44 Comments

1. AnonymousMarch 14,2023 at 3:19PM UTC

   I would suggest talking it over with your manager about the note taking etc. and request that be cut back. The manager may somewhat ignore your request. Make sure to ask what the priorities are for the job (you NEED to get an answer to this). In the future, you can say "Sorry, I cannot do that right now. My manager said [insert priority manager mentioned] is my priority so I need to do that. Perhaps I will be able to take notes again next week". That would be a little blunt but the notes requestors would need to discuss it with your manager. Given the Asian culture, they may not want to confront your manager about it. Hope this helps.

2. KatMarch 14,2023 at 3:46PM UTC

   I understand you have to learn the ropes (so to speak) as a new grad, but this is ridiculous. Don't bother with trying to get them to take you seriously-it's clear that they don't. Is your job title engineer? If it is, what projects are you supposed to be working on? Why aren't you working on them? Have you discussed this situation with your supervisor? If not, schedule a meeting with them and be direct about what you're supposed to be doing. "I was hired to work on X project. What is the timeline for getting me on that project? If Project X is done/not happening, what is my next project?" If you can't get a solid answer ("I don't know when you can get on Project X", "that's probably 3-6 months away" or "there's nothing in your area coming up") or only get platitudes about the work you are doing ('you're doing so well where you are, let's keep you there") it's time to switch jobs. If there's no other team at this company that would value your contributions as an engineer, then it's time to move on. Plenty of companies are looking for engineers-especially women. Have you looked to see if the place you interned at is hiring? They already know you and your skill set, so that would give you an advantage in hiring. Network if you haven't done so, both with your school's alumni groups and with female engineering groups. Check out your schools career services to see if they can connect you with jobs in your field. They should be able to help you with your resume and make the most our of your skills and current experience. You've created Powerpoints and presentations, which are valuable, transferable skills. Don't sell yourself short! You deserve to be treated with respect in a field you've worked hard to be in. Good luck!

3. AnonymousMarch 14,2023 at 4:36PM UTC

   I'd love to bring this up to my manager, but he's the one who started me off in this mess. They don't have any standard training, so he told me to start taking notes and then pushed the burden off onto my team (who also has no idea how to train someone). Even worse, he's rarely around to have a conversation with. Occasionally, I'll get a part drawing to work on, but it's very rare.

   I've tried going to networking events and used my college's career services. The woman I met with was surprised I wasn't getting many interviews over the 6 months I've been looking. Good entry level jobs are few and far between in my area right now.

4. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 3:37PM UTC

   Have you tried asking your team if you can work on specific tasks? If you're taking notes in meetings, then you have the best idea of what types of things need to be completed. Talk to the project lead and tell them that you would like to be responsible for XYZ. Really pay attention to what they say in response. They might surprise you and say yes. I doubt they would actually say "no" but, since asian coutries typically are more indirect communicators than western countries (US, Europe), they might mean no without saying it. If you haven't already, I highly recommend doing some research on Korean business culture so that you can learn to communicate in their style while you are there.

   As for the customer asking for notes, that doesn't seem like as big of a deal to me, but that's because meeting summaries have been customary at all the companies I've worked at. After the meeting, send a quick email to the people within your company that attended the meeting with a list of action items, due dates (if applicable), and the person responsible for each item (add yourself to a couple of the things that you want to do). When you send it, ask them if they have anything that they want to add before you send it to the customer at xx time on yy date. You might get some responses, or you might not, but it will force them to at least acknowledge the notes and will get you some things to work on.

   To be completely honest, you will need to get another job. If it is a company that is headquartered in Korea, their business culture will always model headquarters regardless of if you are in a different country. Having worked for a Japanese company in the US, I had to do much of the same that you are. We had a lot of expats and the business culture drove me nuts. People were promoted based on length of time at the company and not based on capabilities, this led to a lot of idiots in positions of power. The most junior member of the team was always expected to take notes (man or woman), if they were a woman, they were also expected to serve coffee and tea. Eventually, I got my master's degree and found another job and was able to leave, but it took some time.

   You mention that you don't think they are taking you seriously. I wouldn't assume that. If Korean business culture is anything like Japanese, the team is basing their actions on the manager's lead and the manager probably thinks that you haven't been there long enough to contribute more. Not saying that it's right, or that it's fair, it's just the way their business culture works. While I was working at the Japanese company, I found that the men who had daughters were my biggest allies. They were much more likely to allow me to contribute to their projects than the ones who didn't have daughters or kids. I think that despite the culture, they saw a bit of their daughter in me and did what they would want someone to do for their daughter. Once this started happening, and people started seeing my work, others allowed me to help with their projects. If anyone on your team has daughters or nieces, you might try starting with them. You could also try to put a meeting on your manager's calendar to try to pin him down.

   I hope some of this helps. I feel your pain, I really do. It's a tricky situation, and exhausting to deal with, but will definitely help you in the future when you are at a company and have asian businesses as customers. Good luck!

5. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 7:19PM UTC

   you may need to move

6. AnonymousMarch 14,2023 at 5:43PM UTC

   You need to speak with your manager and HR and offer examples of the job, job title abd specific responsibilities you want. Let them know that they need to hire an administrator for the department and that you will no longer function in that role.

7. Joan Williams, Senior Talent Acquisition SpecialistMarch 15,2023 at 6:43AM UTC

   I'm very sorry to hear you're being treated this way. Not the kind of experience someone should have to go through on their first job.

   I think in your case the cold hard truth is that they're never going to see you as more than they already see you.

   At this stage in your career particularly, it's very important that you are learning as much as possible. And it doesn't sound like you're learning - at least not what you need to be - and they are uninterested/unable to teach you what you need to be learning.

   If you don't get out asap, you risk losing years in your chosen career. I think - and this might get you fired - the only way to try to get them to take you seriously is to stop being their admin.

   What was the interview process like for this position?

8. Debra SesholtzMarch 15,2023 at 1:25PM UTC

   You are in a tough position. Not only being the only woman, but having to deal with the Asian business culture. This will be tough to overcome. Is there any admin support other than you? If so, recruit them to help with the admin functions. You may have to get your manager to help you. Do you have engineering projects you are working on? Some ideas you can try…help them to be self-sufficient. When they ask you to check their email, show them tools they can use to check it themselves. Not just spell check, but there are tools like Hemingway & Grammarly that can help them check their grammar. They will never learn or improve if you do it for them. Ask to join engineering project teams. At least while you are there, try to get the engineering experience you need. It will be difficult to change the Asian business culture, so look for ways to get what you need so you can move on to your next opportunity.

9. AnonymousMarch 15,2023 at 2:47PM UTC

   Welcome to the world of female engineering.
   I've been in the field 34 years and had ridiculous experiences.....been asked my pregnancy schedule during an interview (um, illegal), been asked to stir spaghetti sauce during working hours because I should be "good at that", been blown off/ignored due to my gender, been told "if it were easy, women could do it", been told by a boss that if it were up to him that he would select women by their breast size etc...... I have always felt that I had to work twice as hard for half the credit. My advice is to find a new job where your talents and hard work are valued. Better yet, consider starting your own company. There are many opportunities for female owners. Remember, you are smart and worthy - don't let these idiots get in your head. Stay strong.

10. Mare LevineMarch 15,2023 at 3:39PM UTC

    You've received a lot of great responses and advice already. A couple of thoughts on ending your note-taking days quickly: I noticed you said there weren't any jobs 'in your area.' Expand your search to include 'remote' positions.

    Also, have you tried: Engineer Girl https://www.engineergirl.org/33/Engineering-Careers or

    Society of Women Engineers: https://careers.swe.org/

    Consider working with a career coach on learning to set boundaries for your next position. I learned to make a list rotating note-taking duties for the senior leadership team, or the task always defaulted to one of the women. This sort of stuff creeps in and you have to be prepared to stomp it out day one of your next position.

    Best wishes!

11. AnonymousMarch 15,2023 at 3:50PM UTC

    My stepdaughter is a mechanical engineer at a naval shipyard. Even though she's tough as nails and comments slip off her like water off a duck's back, she's grumbled about the chauvinism where she works and hinted as having to work twice as hard.

    With that said, she was promoted a few months ago to a high-level position, overseeing four male managers each with team leads and dozens of engineers and other workers. Persistence and a tough skin, unfortunately, may be the only way to persevere in a male-dominated industry. Each woman who pushes through, leaves a path for the next woman.

    I know my stepdaughter is foraging a path through tall brambles, but I bet she's going to make it easier for the next female engineer to advance.

    You gotta' be "Rosie the Riveter" and prove them wrong by taking on the tough challenges, and subtly pushing back by saying you're too busy or currently engaged in a pressing project. Let their emails fester in your inbox, unproofread because you're doing YOUR job and not theirs.

12. AnonymousMarch 15,2023 at 6:24PM UTC

    Without trying to make too many judgments, you are caught up in a culture of male chauvinism. You could push back, buy yourself a hand brace, and ask if someone else could take notes because your hand hurts, but that only works for a couple of meetings (I know, snarky, but mostly kidding here). Pushing back will only worsen matters, so I suggest putting a portfolio together and looking for a company that could offer you a little more respect.

13. AnonymousMarch 15,2023 at 6:24PM UTC

    Get too busy with other things.

14. Molly GreenwoodMarch 16,2023 at 12:20PM UTC

    You LEAVE and find something that matches your qualifications

15. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 12:20PM UTC

    You need to look for another job and once you know what opportunities are out there, speak up. The issue is that your degree doesn’t matter to those people. Your job is the one you accept. Nobody wants to the note taker, and it’s common place to ask the new person to do menial things outside their scope of work to be liked. They are taking advantage of you but I’m not sure it has to do with the profession, culture or gender of your colleagues. Your role has simply become what you accepted it to be, and ask yourself if you’ve ever truly pushed back or if you accepted these asks with an outward smile and inward shudder. Anyway, find a new job and start reading up and experimenting with setting boundaries with the types of colleagues that try to dupe the new person into taking on tasks that are not in their role description. BTW if anybody had figured out how to be likeable while sticking up for themselves let me know, still haven’t quite cracked that one.

16. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:41PM UTC

    You are not sure if it has to do with the culture or the fact that they have not bothered to hire any women but her? You think it may be because she is new? Well, I think you don’t have a firm grasp on the gravity of this young woman’s situation. She was obviously hired as their token woman to satisfy American standards of diversity and they never planned on treating her correctly given her degree. This probably flies overseas in their homeland. Luckily, we are in the USA where there are laws about this stuff. Only question really is whether she takes action with HR or whether she gets a new job and then files of discrimination suit. I vote for the latter.

17. Molly GreenwoodMarch 16,2023 at 12:21PM UTC

    I’m waiting for you people to realize that people, companies, titles are a joke— especially in this country

18. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 12:26PM UTC

    Many have said what I would say.... I have been in your shoes. It is (still) common for women in engineering to be treated this way, early on. Shrug and look for another job with better respect for women at the higher levels. Those organizations exist! I agree you probably won't be able to change the culture where you are; but you could focus on learning what you can where you are, while you look for better opportunities.

19. G C HesseMarch 16,2023 at 12:49PM UTC

    Backbone....ever heard of it???

    I'm a Mechanical Engineer and at no given time in my career was I asked to do what you wrote about.

    If you don't stand up for yourself....like today this kind of attitude will continue.

    Find one of the MEGA engineering firms and start applying. Or be the admin with an engineering degree.

20. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:26PM UTC

    Not helpful! Sarcasm and mean words to try to bolster someone up? Passive aggressive garbage that just blames the victim. And no 'tough love' doesn't work, it just makes you a bully.

21. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:32PM UTC

    GC- blaming the victim here is not the way to go. Consider yourself lucky if this didn’t happen to you.Clearly you never were job placed in a company where the overseas culture of women as servants was imported into a US based firm. Backbone is not the thing here-good strategy is.

22. CStiggerMarch 16,2023 at 12:51PM UTC

    At some point, you need to advocate for yourself and put the ownership on someone else to take notes. "I have previously taken notes and we can share the wealth, let's have Jim Bob take notes today." this is a complete statement.

23. DeborahORellMarch 16,2023 at 12:54PM UTC

    This might be considered gender discrimination. meaning would they be treating a similarly situated man this way? Probably not. (but that doesn't prove your claim. You aren't going to change the culture and it seems there is little room for growth. So another company is really a must. How you leave is up to you. Find another job and just go. that's how most people do it. and that's fine. But if you want to hold them accountable for their discriminatory behavior, you need to complain to HR about gender discrimination. This may or may not be a great 'case' but by complaining and giving examples that support your claims, you may be able to set yourself up to leave with a better severance at the very least. Money to tide you over until you find another position and to compensate you for how they wasted your time and expertise. Contact a few employment discrimination attorneys in your area. Or reach out to NELA.org. National Employment Lawyers Association. If you'd like, feel free to reach out to me and I'd be happy to speak with you directly for guidance.

24. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 12:54PM UTC

    Leave. You aren't going to change this culture.

25. Chrissy Regan SmytheMarch 16,2023 at 1:13PM UTC

    Start looking for another job. You will not change things there if you stay.

26. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:26PM UTC

    This is of course completely unacceptable but tricky. Do you have any allies in management? Are there any decent people there who you can talk to about this? Is there an actual HR department? If so, I would write up a note saying exactly what you told us and go to the HR manager or Ally or both. Also be very specific about what you ideally want to be working on. Before you do that, contact an employment attorney. While you do this, start applying for other jobs, too. Outside of the office I would also see you got a good friend you can talk to or therapist to get you through this rough time. It is truly amazing to me that we women are still dealing with this kind of stuff in 2023.

27. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:38PM UTC

    you HAVE to push back, in a polite and professionnal manner.

28. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 1:47PM UTC

    There's a lot of advice being offered for you here but what do you want? Do you want to stay with this company and try to change the way things are? Would it make you happy and fulfilled? Or are you done and ready to move on?

    If

    you decide this is where you want to be, can you speak to your manager about it

    or are there other managers you could approach for advice? From a company

    perspective, and assuming your salary is for an Engineer not an Admin, are they

    really okay with paying you that much money for the mundane garbage you are

    doing? As your Supervisor I would much rather have you doing the work I hired

    you for. Are there any women at the company that you would feel comfortable

    approaching? They may have some insights for you on how to handle the situation,

    especially if they’ve been there for a while.

    If

    you choose to stay and want to cut down on the admin work, I suggest starting

    with refusing those requests for basic garbage these guys should be handling

    for themselves. "It will be difficult, my workload is really heavy. I'm

    not going to be able to get to your request for a few days." " It

    will be difficult, I'm not going to be able to take care of mailing this

    package until x," etc. You don’t have to be mean or rude but you can be

    firm about what your priorities are.

    I'm

    a people-pleaser and was always told to be 'helpful and accommodating' so it

    took a few years for me to realize that most people are more than willing to

    take advantage of it and some cultures almost seemed to be geared towards

    taking advantage of people (not a comment on it, just an observation)

    Ultimately, you can decide if you want to try to change things for the company or move on for your career.

29. Rebecca MillikenMarch 16,2023 at 1:48PM UTC

    It's super difficult to prove gender discrimination, although this is definitely a probability. Look for a new job. You've been there a year, that's good enough. If you stay longer, things won't change. Look at it this way, you are still only out of school a year now, so stressing that on your resume is OK. What if you stayed at this job for 5 years and still had nothing to note from it on your resume? Get out now--it's a dead end.

    Editing to add--I see you say entry level jobs are scarce in your area; maybe, but don't give up. Being a woman in your field is a double edged sword. Even though it can suck to be the only woman or one of few, places do want to hire women to diversify their company. Also, I do wonder if they hired you because you were a woman who filled a quota but they didn't plan on having you do much and having someone fresh out of college gives them an excuse for treating you that way.

30. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 2:29PM UTC

    Do you have a Women in Technology chapter (WIT) near you? I’d try to get connected with this association if you aren’t already.

31. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 2:30PM UTC

    https://mywit.org/

32. Angela Day DentonMarch 16,2023 at 3:17PM UTC

    I would definitely look for a new job. This situation is not going to get better. I wish you well.

33. Ana UndermanMarch 16,2023 at 3:54PM UTC

    Do you have an HR person? This is very clearly gender discrimination, cut and dried. Find whoever is responsible for HR in your company and ask for a copy of your job description. Let them know that you are being asked to do things outside of it that are making you feel uncomfortable. Use the words "discrimination" and "sexism." If this doesn't turn around IMMEDIATELY, threaten legal action.

34. Erica MitchellMarch 16,2023 at 4:29PM UTC

    Stand up for yourself and respectfully tell HR that you weren't hired as a secretary and need to be given the work you're supposed to be doing. The men working there are discriminating against you because you are a woman, not to mention, the only one. Speak up.

35. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 5:30PM UTC

    Please find a female mentor. I know it is hard in your field to find a successful female. You may need to join a women focused group. Society of women engineers is such a group. You will need to stand up for yourself if you want to be respected by your male peers. It is not fair.

    I hope you get advice from women engineers not HR on how to push back their work.

    if you find another job keep in mind what happened to you and do not let the next team take advantage of you.

    older men have a default for certain tasks. It is frustrating. I was asked to order and pick up the pizza for a team meeting. Once was fine. But I was not going to let it be a default. I suggested rotation of the task. Don’t let them pull the stunt, saying you do such a good job it should be you. Turn it back on them. Explaining you would be happy to help them sharpen their skills in note taking or what ever they are dodging.

    my mother is now a retired engineer. She got in there and fought for things like restrooms for women in the same building.

    HR can help but you will be the one holding the line.

    maybe suggest to the men to use Grammarly to help them in their writing. This is obviously a weakness for them. They key going forward is to help, not do their work.

    Good Luck!!

36. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 7:13PM UTC

    HR works for the COMPANIES best interest. They are not likely to put their neck out in my experience.

37. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 5:49PM UTC

    You are in a culture problem. Clearly they will only treat you as what you described because that is what they wanted and there is not likely going to be a path for growth and you there. I would strongly suggest you start looking and find a company where there is a path to grow and learn, and maybe one where there is a woman in leadership or women on the team.

38. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 6:31PM UTC

    OP UPDATE: I appreciate all of your suggestions! You'll all be happy to hear I've been applying to other jobs (since October), I just haven't had much luck. I keep tabs on companies in my area that prioritize diversity, and will continue to do so. I'm trying to balance applying to jobs with avoiding other companies like this, because I'd love to find a company to stay with for a few years.

    As for allies or HR, I don't think this would be taken seriously. I agree that I was probably a diversity hire, and no one at this company will ever take me seriously. Especially being a woman, AND young. And, if anything, the non-asian coworkers benefit from my "help" too much to do anything. I will be introducing them all to Grammarly when the topic arises.

39. AnonymousMarch 16,2023 at 7:11PM UTC

    Look for a young professional club in the closest city. Join and NETWORK! You will have something in no time.

40. Liz MilneMarch 17,2023 at 12:11AM UTC

    Start working to rule - if it's not in your contract don't do it.

    Be polite and cheerful, but when they say, 'Hey OP, aren't you taking notes today?' say, 'Not today, Jim, I'm a [job title] not a secretary, you know. I only ever took notes while I was settling in - I'm settled now and no longer need to take notes. Shall I call in [receptionist/ secretary/ typist] to take notes instead, if they still need to be taken?'

    That sort of thing - and do it in such a way that it is awkward for them to protest. With the proofing etc, if you're happy to do it, ask for it to be added to your duties for a significant pay bump; if not, just say no, but again, cheerfully and politely.

    Good luck!

41. AnonymousMarch 17,2023 at 1:32AM UTC

    Stop bringing your notebook to meetings. Say "Oh I figured "Joe" (or whoever) could take notes.

    Make it known that it's not cool that they just expect the woman to do it. But if you don't do it automatically, it may make them question it.

    I know that may not be realistic, but these guys need a reality check.

42. Crystal HowellMarch 17,2023 at 10:35AM UTC

    Like Nancy Reagan said Just say NO, it's not in my job description.

    Join women in engineering groups, Google them. Stay and fight, if it's a big form they hired you to be engineer,remind them.

43. STEPHANIE NOWE-MORRISMarch 18,2023 at 8:58PM UTC

    Try not to let it get your down, after 30 years in the engineering and architecture industry, your roles sound very typical and great learning experiences. Our professions did away with secretaries to take notes decades ago due to the complexity of the task. Think of the minute taker as one of the most powerful roles around the table, as you are the one who records who is responsible for each task and each milestone, its a great learning experience for you at your level and it will take years for your to learn the processes and all the skills to be a competent engineer. Our industry is one of life long learning. No matter if your male or female, you may end of doing this for the project team throughout your career. I have ben a principal for decades, and still take the notes often and my colleagues often ask me to proof important documents, as I ask them to proof mine. Try the to think of your office as a team, they have your back, you have theirs. Everyone pitches in to get the job done.

    Don’t give up, shine!!

44. AnonymousMarch 23,2023 at 12:14PM UTC

    I completely disagree, it seems as if you haven't "read the room" of OPs post.