I was called ageist...

Anonymous

September 28,2023 at 2:02PM UTC

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I was called ageist...

I'm in my late 20's. And I totally understand that is not the pinnacle of experience, but I don't think that means I deserve to be treated like a child. I have worked here since I was 20, and in that time I have regularly been referred to and introduced as "the office millennial" and "kiddo." The next closest person to me in age is almost 40, with everyone else falling around 50 or older.

We usually hire a temporary employee or two each year to fill in on my job during our busy season. As the only full-time person in my job, I am often very involved in the hiring process. This means I'm in the interviews and help train them, as well as work beside them.

There have been a couple of people, over the age of 50, who have not worked out. Mainly due to the fact that they told us they were able to use computers (it's integral to the job) and then became so intimidated by their computer tasks that they shut down and refused to do them. Or in one case, an employee told us one thing and then others in the office something else entirely about their schedule, causing massive confusion (seemingly just so they could have another day off).

It was brought up to me recently that I "was especially short with them" and that the rest of my coworkers now believe I am biased against older people. When my supervisor told me this I reminded him that both of these people lied to us and actively caused problems for us. And then I told him how hypocritical that felt considering that I am actively reduced to my age often (it's not like I'm walking in calling people "gramps"). When I said my age, he actively snorted a laugh to himself, and it just made me want to walk away.

Is there a professional way to address this? Our office doesn't have a formal HR department.

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AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 4:33PM UTC
Man, I'm kind of struggling to find sympathy for you. With regards to your first complaint - speak up. Say something. Correct them (I'm guessing here, but isn't 20s not millennial?).
The second part. I almost kinda get the sense that you are stereotyping that anyone over 50 can't figure out computers. Quick solution with that piece: if you are hiring temps, work with the agency to provide some sort of proficiency testing for computers - targeting the specific software you have (like MS Office and whatnot).
If you want to address this head on with you boss, great Have a meeting with him, calmly and confidently tell him how you feel about references to your age.
If you want to cut down on miscommunications and who said what to who, document. Conversations are followed up with emails to be sure that everyone is on the same page.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 5:01PM UTC
I am 27, it's young but technically still millennial. I have requested to not be referred to as the "Office Millennial" and "Kiddo" on many occasions, but am always told something along the lines of "Well, you know we don't mean it as a bad thing"
To elaborate (and this is on me for trying to keep my overall post short because I can be wordy sometimes), I am mostly upset that these references occur with people outside of our regular office and my name is even left out of introductions.
With the second part, I absolutely do not believe anyone over 50 cannot use computers. We have had a couple of employees over the age of 50 who have had no problem using computers and also have been up front and honest about their scheduling needs, with no issue. I get along great with them, and I thought I got along great with one of the women that I was accused of being biased against.
Would you be able/willing to tell me what gave you that impression of me? If there is something I'm unwittingly doing to cause this perception, I would very much like to correct those actions.
As far as hiring, the business prefers to go direct instead of a temp agency. The idea has been discussed many times, but they always decide to just put out a direct ad to hire.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 12:42PM UTC
For me, it’s that you identified what made them difficult to work with as their age. If you posted what you did, without the age, I think I would have had a different impression.
Basic required skills are A, B, and C. Person was sadly lacking in A. We keep hiring people lacking in A. This will get you to root cause much faster, which will lead you to a corrective action that applies to everyone applying for that position.
This is how I look at work:, we are all hired to problem solve as a basic job duty. Sometimes, we, myself included, make it worse before we figure that out.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 5:02PM UTC
Making assumptions that people in their 50’s are not good with computers sounds ageist. On the flip side, calling you a kid and Office millennial is also ageist and not ok either. Going forward, perhaps have some sort of computer screening tests to help find the right people not limited to age.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 5:08PM UTC
Ageism goes both ways. Younger employees are seen as inexperienced with a lack of social skills that are learned by years of working in an office and putting up with the office drama every day. Older employees are seen as technophobes with one foot out the door on their way to retirement. Neither is an accurate description, nor is it acceptable to characterize an entire group of people that way, just because of their birth year. I have faced it on both ends of the spectrum. As a boomer who spent part of her career in the tech industry, I can run circles around some of the younger employees who grew up with technology, so I get it. Just because you can log into Facebook does not mean you are tech savvy. Utilizing a CRM to track your sales prospects and customer service activity can be daunting, even for those of us with years of using tech systems.
As for your particular situation, the best suggestion I have for you is to go back over the scenarios you described and think about ways you might have handled them differently (not saying better, but differently). Were you just a little too impatient with someone struggling to understand something you thought they ought to know rather than stepping them through the process? People generally don't like change, and even if they have seen a particular software system before, it may have been configured differently or used for totally different purposes. You don't have to call me "Grandma" or "the Old Lady" for me to get that vibe.
The snorted laugh your supervisor gave was as much agism as what he is accusing you of. I'm not sure it's a good idea to tell him that though. Just work hard and where you see areas you might improve, work on them. If you aren't sure, ask your boss or a trusted other person how you could do it better.
For the first part of my career, I was not only the youngest but the only woman in a highly technical role with an engineering company. I then went on to work for a software development company. I went through a lot of what you are going through too, the difference being, the "older" ones could run circles around me. Getting along with my superiors and co-workers took a lot of introspection that served me well later on in my career.
Many of my contemporaries are people who are scared to death of their cell phones, so forget trying to teach them a computer. Not all of us are that way though, and just because you are the youngest does not mean you should be treated like a child either.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 5:35PM UTC
Sorry, OP, you were sufficiently harsh with others that you have been called on your behavior by your manager. Time to be more gracious with others across the board, especially older workers. Proceed with poise and kindness, not defensiveness.
I understand how you feel at roughly age 30 (you are tremendously competent, extremely articulate and have earned some stripes), but several decades later I cringe at how dismissively I treated older workers and older job applicants. I’m now older and — karma! — I am suffering the same dismissive treatment that I unwittingly doled out. Don’t make the same mistake.
You will be a better manager if you curtail your impatience and improve your interpersonal skills.
As for your firm’s hiring and management practices:
•Consider giving candidates a test of computer skills before hiring.
•Most people need time and assistance if they are using a new or upgraded software unfamiliar to them. Recognize that this is par for the course.
•Also par for the course: employees not clearly communicating their schedules, or schedules being misinterpreted. What fallback systems can you put in place to minimize such episodes?
•Ultimately, training and retaining staff and establishing backup systems to minimize mixups increase efficiency and profits over the long run. Focus your efforts on these areas and on treating others with kindness and respect and you’ll shine even brighter!
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 5:53PM UTC
First, I’ve been accused of ageism for getting frustrated about the lack of digital literacy in the office, and I’m nearly 50 years old. I’ve worked with people younger than I am who can’t or won’t keep up with technology. Understand this isn’t a You problem or a Generation problem. It’s an “unwilling to learn” problem.
This sounds like a toxic place to work.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 6:35PM UTC
What industry are you in? Probably not digital art, tech/ software development. I'm in accounting and the typical demographic is a bunch of old farts.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 11:16AM UTC
I'm in accounting, been doing it for years. I'm 50, educated, dynamic and talented.
Everything except an "old fart".
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 6:56PM UTC
Of course you're not an "old fart". By the way, don't forget that you can make an additional catch-up contribution. lol
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 8:25PM UTC
I did!! Eligible for AARP too!!!!
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 6:40PM UTC
Having worked at temp agencies, whatever tests the employer wants us to serve up to the candidate is what was done. Typing (aging myself here), computer skills (word, excel, powerpoint, iMac suite, etc.), and even telephone etiquette. See if the agency you use is regularly giving ALL candidates these tests. And, maybe suggest that the company create a one-person HR department, or check into the possibility of hiring on outsourced HR department - yep, they exist.
AnonymousSeptember 28,2023 at 11:48PM UTC
You have to be more serious when you are younger and don't make it an issue - for sure, don't state your age! It sounds like you are professional - reminding people to stay professional in a rather stern manner refusing to talk about age might help - refuse to engage in age talk
Teena JonesSeptember 29,2023 at 8:48AM UTC
In reading through your post it is clear you have an issue when working with older adults.
Although, you don't walk in and call someone "Gramps" as you said you are frustrated.
Understand all individuals over 50 are not intimidated by the computer. It is our generation which moved the world to where we are now. The individuals you are encountering may struggle with the computer or the training. Yes, the applications for some can be intimidation. However, a skilled trainer will find away to ensure the majority of the students become relaxed enough to learn the process.
You are going to encounter those individuals who will not get it and they will need to work else where or go back to school to upgrade their skills.
Age discrimination is not fun. I have experienced it at 20 and at 50. The assumption someone is less than skillful based on age is ridiculous as we all have experience which is profitable to the company.
Dysfunctional employees are dysfunctional because that is who they are not because of their age.
Not defending your manager but they were probably reflecting because sad to say we have all been there done that. Don't take it personal instead ask for suggestions on how to better work with your co-workers. There is specific training for working intergenerational. Be proactive and take a few trainings and point out to management ALL team members can only benefit from this level of diversity training. Be the solution not an issue.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 11:29AM UTC
First, caution.
From what you've shared ageism has been coming from all players, IMO. You've addressed it with your immediate manager, even though you felt that they scoffed at you, could be legit, see what happens next. As from what I read your place of business already seems to lack, decorum. From ALL there. Your perception of how you handled the 2 that didn't work and how they felt you spoke about obviously don't match. Hear me out, when your peers referred to your 'mil, kiddo' it had no other place/person to affect, BUT when they heard concerns about around their age bracket, skills concerns that hit home. THAT is where the judgement landed. YOUR concern had a place of referencing all the other age groups you work with. I think you ALL need a class in empathy, inclusion, and harassment. So, before anyone every jumps to HR, or someone who takes on those responsibilities, need to check your own role in ageistic remarks and inferences. You took it to your boss, if it doesn't improve, take it to theirs. I would also suggest you do the same on your mindset. Simple.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 12:22PM UTC
I find it interesting that people here are calling you ageist when you simply state people didn’t work out, and it was because of their inability to do computer based tasks. Unfortunately age discrimination only exists in a formal sense for people over 40 so I’d caution how you approach this in the workplace, although I have no doubt you are also experiencing bias as a younger person.
I also don’t think it’s out of question you might be particularly short with people who were hired to alleviate burden during a busy season and not exacerbate it because they misrepresented their skills or downright refused to do certain aspects of the job they were hired to do.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 12:29PM UTC
Other than this causing you more work, and that is a concern, you do sound like you have some ageism tendencies. Just because you have experience with people lying about their skills, does not mean everyone does. And, although this is your specific experience, it’s not only people over 50 that exaggerate their experience. I just had to let go a “younger” (I’m 38), because they would not talk on the phone, and in spite understanding that this was part of the job, they flat out refused to acknowledge that this was part of the job. They said they had phone customer experience skills.
No one should be calling you “kiddo” either.
My person opinion is that social media has normalized a lot of disrespectful behavior towards anyone in a different generation. Here’s the problem with this. We have political candidates wanting to raise the retirement age, while many report they cannot get hired after 50. Someday, if we are lucky, we’ll be 50 in the workplace. All we can do is hope tech is a bit more intuitive by then. In the meantime, we’re all hung up on passwords that can’t be updated.
You have about 20 years before your expiration date. I’m down to about 10. Scary stuff when you realize that your health insurance is dependent upon your employment. Good luck to all of us.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 12:53PM UTC
Yeah sounds a bit ageist to me… your post comes across focused on everyone being “old” at your workplace. Maybe stop focusing on age and focus on individual behaviors. Not lumping people together into stereotypes.
nobody ever took time to train you on tasks? Nobody 25 has ever hyped up or lied about experience? maybe it’s the wrong place for you —there are plenty of workplaces that have a better mix of generations. I find working with younger and “old” people together to be really great
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 1:10PM UTC
Unfortunately I agree with two other above replies... the bias is bleeding through in your post. And sometimes I have called someone kiddo not frequently to co-worker but was in jest because he is 3 yrs younger than I. So STOP being so SENSITIVE! 1) Computers and software are evolving so fast it requires retraining on every new version. (we just advanced to Office 365 there is SO MUCH new stuff... AND 3 passwords! for SSO multifunction security. Really!!! These issue are NOT Age related they are IT computer security related! 2) Mixing generations should be advantageous not a battle over one better than the other - all age groups bring VALUE to open-minded people! 3) Age has nothing to do with lying, or trying to connive time off - or laziness! Hmm WOW I should have read some of the other posts...those are good responses below mine too!
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 1:01PM UTC
Sounds like you are ageist but also sounds like that environment is toxic and you have picked up some horrible habits working there.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 8:41PM UTC
Agreed! I work at startups and the last startup I worked at there were a few genZ kids on the team. Company was the most toxic environment I’ve ever encountered in my 20yr+ Xennial career and I just kept thinking how screwed these people would be when they made it into the real world, after all of the horrible toxic habits they’d learned so early in their careers. There’s no way their learned behavior would fly in any other normal company. I almost feel bad for them.
Sarah BordersSeptember 29,2023 at 1:25PM UTC
Hello from the other end of the millennial spectrum! At 27, you’re on the cusp, and at 42, so am I. What’s wild is, many of the folks I graduated high school with are turning 43 between July and December this year, and that officially makes them, just barely in some cases, Gen Xers.
Generational labels are a crap way to broad brush people, often for marketing purposes, and the rest of society has a tendency to home in on the most negative traits assigned to the people boxed in the generation as a form of tribalism. It’s arbitrary and stupid. Every generation goes through this period where there’s some stigma attached to anyone in it, making it de rigueur to hate on them. Some unfortunate generations go through it twice (I’m looking at you, Baby Boomers).
I read through your post twice; the second time was after I read a few of the comments. I don’t think you’re ageist, and I do think you’ve been subjected to ageism, albeit legally unrecognized ageism. I’ve been the youngest person on my team, and it was that way for a while—maybe the first nine years of my professional career. It’s unfortunate, but your lack of years on this planet will often be equated with inexperience, and lead people to believe it’s OK to discriminate against you—sometimes in the form of assuming you’re naive, and sometimes in the form of assuming you’re a technical genius.
Without proper HR (Is this a startup? Because otherwise, the lack of HR is a big issue here), all you can really do is prove yourself through your actions, and when someone addresses you as “kiddo” or refers to you as “the office millennial”, call them out in the moment. Remind them that you’d like to maintain a professional working relationship, and such negative epithets are undermining that ideal.
The other issue, as some have highlighted, is hiring people not technically suited to fulfill all the job duties. (Your employer SO needs HR!) A technical aptitude test should be compulsory in the hiring process, and that should remedy the issue going forward.
Good luck to you!
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 1:27PM UTC
Speaking as a gen x here- we do know how to use computers you know. We joke in my office all the time ( like when we needed to get stamps… ?) I hear ageist things all the time (maybe they don’t realize I’m over 50.) - it seems to be the one thing that is still ok to insult and a source of amusement for younger ppl. But I like most of the ppl because they actually do seem to value my take or conversation or that I still have a sense of humor. Maybe you need to realize you can learn from a lot of people- and if they aren’t up to speed in something just teach them and they will appreciate it. One day- quicker than you know- you too will be 50. And you will be far from old, far from obsolete.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 1:34PM UTC
As an Office Manager who has been lied to during the interview process, I completely understand your frustration. I had to let someone go because they couldn’t keep up with transcription, which is 80% of the job! My advice is to administer a short test on the the features of the programs needed for job. Ensure that they know it is a challenging, fast paced environment during the busy season as well. And no one should call you anything outside of your name, but that’s the issue with working in a small company, people tend to be casual. Good luck and I hope this helps.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 1:42PM UTC
If go with the test - needs to have validity and be reliable and must be administered to all
Natalie FieldsSeptember 29,2023 at 3:05PM UTC
I agree with the brief test idea. When I was a sr call center mgr, part of the interview was to take them over to a workstation and administer a typing test as well as a test showing they could effectively switch between multiple applications during a mock call. All in all, between the interview and the assessment, it was less than an hour of their time. It helped us identify the most qualified candidates and kept from wasting both our time and theirs (I’d hate to hire someone and then realize they were basically set up for failure and couldn’t perform the job duties well - who wants to get hired and then possibly be let go just a few weeks later and have to go back to job search square one again!?)
There were plenty of candidates of all different age groups who passed with flying colors and plenty who did not. We definitely noticed less turnover/slower “churn” once we implemented that practice.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 6:51PM UTC
I agree, I think this is great advice. At least then there will be facts to support your hiring decisions, something that can be tangible. Good luck!
Lisa MammenSeptember 29,2023 at 1:49PM UTC
When we are young we fight for people to see our value beyond our age and when we are older we fight for people to see our value beyond our age. Both groups can learn a lot for each other if they are open. However, if you want to bridge a gap make sure you are not saying things or behaving ways that seems ageist first, then if you feel treated unfairly bring it up respectfully. If nothing changes move to another workplace.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 2:00PM UTC
I have been concerned about all of the talk about generations. The need for society to identify people by their generation is creating its own class system. I do remember when the label generation X started gaining traction in Pop Cultural. Now it has gone over board.
I try to treat every one as a human, regardless of race, sex or generation. Somedays are easier.
I try not to disclose my age at work personally. I’ve have said things like today I feel like I’m in my forties. I have to color my hair so that I look younger cause I am not ready to retire.
No it is not fair you are being judged by your age. I’ve been there and judged on my age in my twenties.
You will need to find away to address it when a age remark comes up. Maybe “my age or generation has no bearing on the contributions I make to the company”.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:02AM UTC
AGREE and very well said
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 2:03PM UTC
People in their 50s are Gen X. GenX is very different than the Boomers, yet for some reason people overlook this generation or assume they are just like the Boomers. Far from it. Gen X basically paved the way for regular computer use in the workplace. They were actually part of the transition back in the 90s, and many, many Gen Xers are behind the creation of platforms like Google and social media like Facebook. Lack of computer/tech skills is not a GenX issue. However, ineptitude can happen in any generation, and blaming someone's lack of tech skills and then mentioning their age in the same breath does make you sound ageist, even if you feel you aren't. Education is your best defense against making assumptions about people based on their age. People in their 50s are tough as nails and tech is a learned skill, not an inherent talent. If they were intimidated by their computer tasks, it's not because they can't manage the fancy machinery their generation created, it's because they weren't trained properly. The honus is on the company to do that. The fact that you don't have a proper HR department works against you. At least hire a consultant to help you navigate these issues
Sarah BordersSeptember 29,2023 at 3:32PM UTC
I agree with everything you said here! Just one point: At 39, Mark Zuckerberg is technically in the millennial generation, and all those other guys who started Facebook with him are between the ages of 39 and 41—all technically millennials.
My parents are from the silent generation, and they’re both INCREDIBLY tech savvy. There are some areas of technology where they can run circles around me, and I say that as someone who works in IT.
The lack of proper HR here is appalling, and I don’t know how OP can stand it.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:28PM UTC
Yup, you're right about FB being the brain child of Millenials. My bad. I think GenXers did start MySpace, though, which is the predecessor. We also had the patience to sit through dial up just to use the Internet. LOL. But we all have had our very significant contributions to the technology world, and one generation can't lay claim to owning technology. We've all built on each other.
Sarah BordersSeptember 30,2023 at 1:52PM UTC
I have great nostalgia for the sounds of dialup Internet and the days before proper search engines! As an “elder millennial” literally on the cusp of being in Gen X, my upbringing was more or less identical to my only sibling who is three years older than I am. It was pretty analog.
I once taught a college-level course on Web application development to students largely on the older end of Gen Z, and by way of introduction, I asked everyone to share an interesting fact about themselves. One student shared, “I didn’t have access to the Internet at home until I was 14,” and I said, “Me, neither!” :-)
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:01AM UTC
I agree with you, except for you saying GenX is not Boomers like there something wrong with Boomers you sound as bad as the original poster. Why don’t people look at individuals as individuals not put everyone in a group. There are good, bad, smart and not so smart, ones with attitude and ones with not. Saying that any group can not keep up with technology is ageist. Everyone should open their eyes. You can learn things from people of any age if your ego is not involved
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:25PM UTC
You're right for pointing out that I mentioned "Boomers" and I can definitely see how that came off as ageist. My reason behind it was in reference to the current media war between Boomers and Millenials, and how there's so much finger pointing between the generations. "Boomer" has sort of morphed into this catch all phrase to describe older people, and people in their 50s are often not given their due as their own separate generation. But I grew up with Boomers as I'm an early GenXer. These people were the cool older brothers and sisters. It's a generation that has given us so much -- including my favorite music of all time, which means everything to me. I guess as a GenXer I get tired of the younger generations just assuming all people over 50 have turned into this infamous Boomer stereotype just like all middle aged, white women turn into Karens. So that was my reasoning behind bringing the Baby Boomers into the conversation. But I can totally see your point, and how I came off in my comment.
Angela P.September 30,2023 at 8:02PM UTC
The Gen Z interns routinely 'okay boomer's millennials. 'Boomer' is now routinely applied to anyone over 35 in some circles, it's a regular delight ?
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 11:37PM UTC
Thank you for explaining. The medic everybody using these titles to describe a person is absolutely ridiculous. We are all individuals. For people to use one group against another is very damaging. These stupid titles should be thrown out the window. If the individual wants to give THEMSELVES a title go for it. But nobody has the right to do that by them.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:33PM UTC
Again, making excuses and getting your ego involved is not helping the woman in question. When you answer with emotion that's not addressing her issue. The issue is attitude and lack of experience. Changed attitude and experience with training people who work for you goes a long way.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 1:09PM UTC
As a Gen X person, I can tell you that people assume I cannot use tech until I show them I can. There are tech adverse people in all age groups. We need to look at people as individuals. Thank you for this discussion. I agree, please be part of the solution.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 3:04PM UTC
It is clear there is a lot of hostility going on here. I don't know what kind of work your organization does, but as a woman of 61 years, I find it hard to believe that 50-year-olds there can't use computers. That's absolutely ridiculous. I doubt there is much you can do on a computer that I can't do. No one should be calling you kiddo etc. Or taking their bias against millennials out on you. Some people believe millennials expect instant success and money without putting in the work. While there may be some truth to that, it is a stereotype. Besides, millennials are not really the youngest in the organization anymore. I would say just be straight with people how the remarks make you feel. We all deserve respect and we can learn from each other no matter our age.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:31PM UTC
I agree. I don't believe people over 50 are uniformly technology challenged. I am very glad to see this called out, actually. It seems like age discrimination only gets a slap on the wrist.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 12:31PM UTC
Making excuses for bad behavior doesn't address the lack of training and the obvious condescending attitude this woman has. Attitude is key.
Mary PoolSeptember 29,2023 at 8:07PM UTC
Why not be part of the solution instead of part of the problem? This is an attitude problem, and the problem attitude is yours. You would not be happy with personnel’s solution because it is your poor treatment of your co-workers that has been noticed.
My daughter got a job at 22, just out of college. She is the youngest there by at least 25 years, most much older. She shares an office with a long-term employee who was having trouble with the new system (she also happens to be in her 70s, but that is beside the point). My daughter walked her through the process, took copious notes, and made her a reference sheet. She did this for every issue. Was this her job? No, but she did it because she likes to work in a supportive atmosphere and recognizes that supportive atmospheres starts with you. Soon, other people started asking for copies of the reference sheets because they were experiencing the same problems.
Two years later, she is known as the go-to person. She has won awards and promotions. When she has a bad day, she can call any co-worker, and they are there for her. Why? Because she is a team player, she is not trying to get ahead by climbing on other people’s backs. She never says, “Look at me; I am so much better than everyone else.” She shows her worth through her actions.
Be part of the solution. Not only will you be happier, but so will your co-workers and boss.
P.S. Look at your training routine. It is obviously lacking. One person might be the problem, but a string of people means the training is the problem.
Teena JonesSeptember 30,2023 at 9:03PM UTC
dropped the mic!!! :)
AnonymousOctober 3,2023 at 6:59PM UTC
Your daughter sounds amazing!
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 8:56PM UTC
As someone over 60 currently working in data analytics ???? I agree with the suggestion that you become part of a solution.
AnonymousSeptember 29,2023 at 10:49PM UTC
Yes there is, and yes, you are ageist, firstly know that when you are asked to train someone who might not have grown up using technology as you have their learning curve may be steep or less than you being that you never lived in an era without it. Have empathy for others and know that when you do and you can share something that you know with others who may be more advanced in their career than you you too benefit from this by showing your maturity for others. If you are in an environment of non-peers as it seems then you should be training them on what is appropriate for you to hear is essential. For instance if someone calls you kiddo let them know that you have a first name and preferentially would like to be addressed by your name only and introduced as such as well. I would sit your direct manager down, let them know that you will do better and they need to as well. There is fault on both sides here but if you cannot see clear to take the high road and do better as well then move to company where everyone is just like you.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 1:05PM UTC
I am over 50 and I don’t believe in labeling people, as was done in this case. We treat people like people not their age. All people can use computers at any age. The level just changes because of when you started using a computer. I believe in giving people chances, I believe in training people and meeting them where they are . Part of onboarding an employee is training them on the job. If an organization realizes that a person does not have the skill they need they should invest in the training to help the employee reach the level required for the position. Let’s be human and compassionate .
Mary O'ShaughnessySeptember 30,2023 at 1:50PM UTC
On-the-job training is appropriate within limits. It is appropriate to hire people who have subject matter expertise for an organization's strategic priorities, and then train them in the needed LOB applications.
Knowledge of how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, and email client is not negotiable now and has not been for at least 30 years. The web-based Microsoft suite has been free for end users for some years, and there is no excuse for not knowing either that or the Google suite.
Douglas GoodallSeptember 30,2023 at 1:20PM UTC
I am over 60, and because I believe Microsoft is a monopoly and their software is buggy, I make a point of using other software in my daily life. If I came to work with you, you would find me somewhat ignorant about Microsoft tech. You would find me slow using Word or Excel. You might jump to ageist conclusions about me, not knowing me. When I was in High School, I was also an employee at U.C.L.A., working as a programmer for Dr. Jaques Vidal on the Brain Computer Interface Project. I wrote communication programs that ran on the ARPA Network Host #1. (The center of the Internet) I have been programming longer than you have been alive (most likely). You never know who you are talking to and you shouldn't jump to conclusions about people because you think they might be older. They might know just what you need.
Mary O'ShaughnessySeptember 30,2023 at 1:46PM UTC
I am almost 60, and an IT director, running a Microsoft shop for business reasons--cost, ability to hire line staff with expertise in using the tools, and integrations with LOB applications.
I would hope you would have the sense to avoid applying for positions that require skills you do not have (i.e. Microsoft end user applications). Programming is an irrelevant skill outside DevOps environments.
Evelyn LivantSeptember 30,2023 at 1:32PM UTC
From reading your post, it almost seems like you don't think anyone over the age of 40 can use computers or be trained. You may want to re-read your post or talk to a career counselor to figure out how to bridge this gap. You need to see your older co-workers as peers and not parents.
I returned to college at 50 and got my BS in Computer Science. When in college, my peers were people younger than my children. I treated them like peers and ignored the age gap.
For us older folks, nicknames like "kiddo" or "the millenial" is a term of endearment. Your co-workers are probably trying to be nice.
Feel free to PM me if you think I can be of any help.
Best of luck
Mary O'ShaughnessySeptember 30,2023 at 1:43PM UTC
"Terms of endearment" do not belong in a workplace.
Your BS in Computer Science may or may not be relevant to the tasks required in a non-developer job role. If someone is hired to do, say, Azure hybrid domain management, their ability to write SQL triggers (for example) may not be helpful.
"Computer science" is not coterminous with "information technology." Both are general terms like "medicine"--a cardiologist is not an obstetrician is not a neurologist.
AnonymousOctober 3,2023 at 6:57PM UTC
I have a good friend who calls me kiddo all the time. He’s 7 years older than me. I know for a fact he respects me due to the conversations we have and how he has spoken about ne to others. It’s fine. If you don’t like kiddo just say
something, don’t automatically think it’s a bad thing. The younger guys in my office throw around “boomer” to anyone older than 40….
Mary O'ShaughnessySeptember 30,2023 at 1:39PM UTC
If someone is not capable of fulfilling job responsibilities, and they do not report to you, you need to provide evidence to their supervisor and human resources, copying your manager. If their failures are impacting your deliverables, you bring it directly to your manager.
Keeping your tone professional and neutral is completely within your power and responsibility.
Do not cite your age or anyone else's. Stick to performance issues. If someone calls you "millenial" or "kiddo," reply politely with, "I really prefer being called [your name.]" The second time, repeat it. After that, take it to HR.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 1:52PM UTC
I'm 51, and can probably run computer rings around you. The problem you encountered was with the skill, not with the age.
You don't like your age being tossed in your face, and yet you did exactly that - made someone else's age a factor, when in reality, it shouldn't be.
If you don't like the references to your age, say so. If it doesn't stop, find some place else to be. But don't become the very thing you're railing against in this post.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 2:00PM UTC
I just wanted to point out she said they had hired older people who didn't work out because of their lack of computer skills. She DID NOT say that all older people can't use a computer.
Angela P.September 30,2023 at 7:57PM UTC
No, she said she got scolded for being particularly 'short' with them (read: unprofessional) and that her coworkers now think she's ageist. She also called out the fact that her coworkers are all -so old- and that the hires that didn't work out were in their fifties. I was born in the 80s ( I too, am a millennial), and if this post is representative of her typical behavior and not just venting she's an immature brat.
When someone like this works for me for me, they get one warning before I fire them for the attitude problem.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 11:15PM UTC
But why point out the age at all? She doesn't like being classified as the office millenial, yet she pointed out that the people were over 50. Even if she didn't mean for it to come across that way, the fact that she was accused of it by her coworkers means it definitely came across that way. Remember the point of the original post: she was accused of being ageist.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 2:01PM UTC
I have worked alongside gen y people who couldn't understand anything beyond how to text. I am over 40 and I bet I could run rings around you in any technology because it's been my job to keep the software you use safe and useable for over 25 years. I've also taught 70 year olds how to program successfully and had millennials bomb out of my classes because they couldn't understand basic algebra or logic. Age has absolutely nothing to do with ability. Though attitude does, anyone who thinks they are too old to do something -is- but only because they believe so, there's no inherent lack that age gives you, except for laziness and that's not a factor of age. There are plenty of younger people I've trained who never progressed because they are too intimidated by learning the tasks they need to. Strip age right out of your lexicon, it's incorrect, inefficient and is getting in your way. As for how others treat you, it is unprofessional to nickname you kiddo. You can insist on being treated better but right here you sound very immature (again not an aspect of age) and if you want to start getting treated like an adult you need to gain some maturity in your words and behaviors.
Douglas GoodallOctober 1,2023 at 12:31PM UTC
I want to work for you, do you need a software engineer? I started programming micro-processors on the day they switched from 4-bit to 8-bit cpu's. Mostek, Zilog, Intel...
AnonymousOctober 1,2023 at 6:22PM UTC
I'm no longer an engineering manager -switched to cyber security, but I do get the "I'd love to work with/for you" a lot and some day in the next few years I'll be back there if the startup I'm working on on the side gets big enough to hire. Thanks for the compliment :-)
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 2:16PM UTC
To assume that older people don't know how to use a computer is dismissive and ageist. I've been in front of computers since 1982, and have worked in and out IT in various positions for just as long. Training people on computer programs requires two things - an effective trainer and a willing student. If you hire people who don't know how to use a computer, you will fail. Period. They have to get their hands on the keyboard and do the work. And I have trained people older than me who get it, and younger than me that refuse to listen and fail. And sometimes the younger ones get it, and the older ones don't. Ensure that your vetting includes some level of computer skills and your job description "willingness to learn". Give a skills test. But you should never hire someone who does not have the skills (basic) or the mindset to advance. It does everyone a huge disservice and I understand your frustration...going through this now.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 4:58PM UTC
I got my first computer for my 5th birthday.
It was a Kaypro.
Mary O'ShaughnessySeptember 30,2023 at 5:23PM UTC
I loved mine--Kaypro 2x! Luggable if you were Godzilla.
Angela P.September 30,2023 at 7:50PM UTC
I love how portable computers used to mean 'able to fit through a doorway'
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 2:51PM UTC
This sounds like you have two problems at your organization: not hiring the right people and not having a solid training program. You are involved in both and have an opportunity to make a difference.
Angela P.September 30,2023 at 3:09PM UTC
If you’re in your late twenties you’re much closer to a Zoomer than a millennial, the oldest of whom are IN their 40s.
If you’re closely involved in the hiring process and you’ve twice hired GenXers who didn’t know how to use a computer (absurd as they’ve had decades to learn) you need to evaluate how your hiring process is failing.
You ARE ageist as you’ve labeled the age, not the hiring and training process as the problem. And now you want to run to HR? ?
Own up, what could your firm have done differently to have caught these folks out before they failed? Are there take home assignments or presentations on-site that would have exposed the lack of technical skills of the candidates?
is the job description accurate?
must know how to use computers can mean ‘needs to use Microsoft office’ or it could mean ‘needs to be fluent in SQL and be able to generate reports and dashboards and the gap between the two is huge.
stop looking for someone to blame (that isn’t you) and be the one who finds the solution, they’ll probably stop patronizing you when you do.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 3:21PM UTC
Mistake number 1: Never admit your age in the workforce. I do not even disclose the year graduated from college because I know recruiters and hiring managers judge people off on those factors. Never answer to the year you graduated because recruiter have asked me this question as a means to inderectly calculate my age. Even though it is illegal — they still judge and people have biases they don’t want to admit.
When people ask your age just say you don't feel comfortable disclosing it. Don’t ever disclose it to anyone.
When I graduated from college, I can recall a lot of unprofessional behavior, rude judgement, and unprofessional comments from people way older than me. People who are older than you, don’t care about your youth, your career, your financial needs, or about young people entering the workplace. They also don’t like it if you are capable of overperforming them. You may even be passed up on a promotion or a good job because that person in charge knows your age.
Also, companies requesting 3-5 years of work experience for entry-level jobs is ageism. Many college grads do not have 3 years of work experience in the same job title. Those expectations are non-inclusive geared against young professionals.
On the other end of the spectrum, my dad is 81 years old. He still works, but recently laid off! He can't get hired as a crossing guard or yard duty because of his age. He is very capable of working that kind of job and has a good reputation. Retired teacher 35 years and Veteran. He cannot get a job.
AnonymousSeptember 30,2023 at 6:17PM UTC
Your Dad is an example of the problem today. The question is can he do the job. Sorry to hear he is not considered. I still remember my crossing guard from over 30 years ago who gave me so much wisdom. As a retired teacher he could make a difference. Hoping he will get hired in a good job soon.
Veronica BentonSeptember 30,2023 at 4:18PM UTC
I work in Human Resources. Your hiring practices are flawed. Are you having your candidates take a computers skill test?
I agree that calling you “kiddo” and “the millennial” is inappropriate. But It sounds to me like you are more concerned with people’s age than you are about the fact that YOU are failing as a recruiter and as a trainer. .
Danielle HarrisSeptember 30,2023 at 8:29PM UTC
I read your post twice and I'm not really getting your supposed agesism that many other people commented on. It just sounds to me that you're presenting the situation that's occurring and asking for advice.
The advice that I would give you is going to your boss and asking for the same professionalism when addressing you as they want when you address others. It might be a term of endearment to refer to someone as kiddio, but in a work environment it's completely unacceptable. You can outsource companies who will spend a day or two with the team working on things like that in the workplace. I don't know if your boss would entertain the idea, but they should want to improve communication across the board.
The other thing you could try to improve on is the steps of the hiring process. If doing computer work is integral for the job then it's not usual to ask someone to do a skills test. I've had to do them for UX Design roles and I know people in other fields who have needed to demonstrate their competency in specific programs. You could also look into a more inclusive approach by offering company paid courses for needed programs.
If you offer suggestions for improvement and they fall on deaf ears, I would start looking for a new job. Life is too short to be stuck in a situation that makes you uncomfortable and upset.
AnonymousOctober 1,2023 at 12:32AM UTC
Just as a disclaimer, I tend to go for practical advice, rather than exact rights and wrongs.
I think you and they are both somewhat at fault. You don't say whether they have used the term "kiddo" in a particular way, but the term "millennial" is now purely pejorative, so they really should not be using it. That said, you have given them the impression that you are biased against older people, so you need to think about how you have responded to not only the temps, but your colleagues more widely. I'd say that their claim of ageism hasn't come from just this one experience; it has to be down to something more. I think they heard what you said as confirmation of your attitude, not the source of it.
Everything you've written suggests to me that this is a firm that acts more as a family, and less as a formal organisation. This comes from the heavy weighting towards more senior people, the informal chatter, and the fact that there is no HR department. What's nice about organisations that are structured in the way yours seems to be is that, in general, people are a lot more forgiving than they would be elsewhere. I think all you need to do is think about why you've stayed there - I'm guessing there's quite a lot of it that you like - and then, if you want to stay, eat a bit of humble pie. Because they see you as someone younger, and there is a family-like structure, they will probably forgive and forget if you go out of your way to be nice for a few weeks. And then, if the terms you dislike come up again after that period, especially "millennial", you'll be able to nicely say that you'd rather they either didn't use anything that relates to your age, or it is at least positive (not so many people object to "whizzkid", as an example).
If that doesn't feel at all comfortable to you, you might be happier somewhere with a different structure. Family structures aren't for everyone - I hated my stint working in one - but here in the UK they make up a lot of SMEs. The benefits to working in them are closeness to colleagues, access to the top, flexibility and, by and large, a lot more forgiveness around certain differences. The typical downsides are lack of formalised growth, less-than-perfect People systems, a lack of diversity and, if you don't much like it, closeness to colleagues!
Lynn Slater MillerOctober 1,2023 at 2:07PM UTC
Milennial, Gen X, Gen Y, Boomer, and on and on. Can we just dispense with all these stupid little age boxes we keep trying to shove people into? Our society does this so much that these terms have become meaningless due to the fact that there is no consensus as to the definitions in the first place.
These terms are thrown around so frequently in an attempt to define groups of people, their attitudes, their skills, and needs that we lose sight of the fact that we are all individuals who live and work within differing communities.
As others have stated, your problem has nothing to do with anyone's age, except for your fixation on it. You really don't have the necessary experience to be an effective recruiter, so go get yourself some HR training. If your boss requires this as part of your job, then let him/her know how you've realized there are skills you need to be better at it and ask to have company pay for the training.
This benefits everyone. Your vocational experience and skills are expanded. Your reputation within the company rises because you are seen as a pro-active problem solver. The company benefits from more effective recruitment and the elimination of lost payroll funds to bad hires.
If you take the entire aspect of age out of the description of the situation, you will realize these problems occur in every organization without a skilled and effective HR system, whether there is an HR department or not.
AnonymousOctober 1,2023 at 6:09PM UTC
Your post sounds ageist, particularly when you identify age and not your hiring practices as the problem. There are older people who can run rings around a Generation Z in technolgy usage. I doubt you gave applicants a computer skills test. You sound way too inexperienced to be in recruitment. You need HR training. Its also unprofessional and ageist for anyone to call you "kiddo."
AnonymousOctober 2,2023 at 5:35PM UTC
Sorry....you sound a bit biased in your choice of words. Most 50-plus-year-olds know how to utilize a computer. It was introduced during that era. Software may become a problem for some, but often, this age group goes above and beyond to figure it out. Being "short with them" is probably also accurate, based on the tone in your soliloquy above. The reality is that your age group believes anyone after 40 is old, which is just ridiculous. BTW...unless you have a time capsule, you'll reach the same age and want to be shown the same respect.
AnonymousOctober 3,2023 at 8:48PM UTC
TLDR:
1. Improve your hiring process
2. Improve your training to be comprehensive with comprehensive training materials
3. Don't participate in ageism just because it was done to you.
4. Own your actions, mistakes and role in the issue.
5. Address someone 1:1 who may be doing something which bothers you.
The first issue is the hiring and/or training process. If certain skills are needed and the work is temporary and presumably fast paced considering you mentioned "busy season" then either test for the competency and provide comprehensive training and training materials. If you yourself are providing the training, I would give serious reflection on how thoroughly you are training people and how approachable you are to ask for clarifications, etc.
The second issue is that you feel justified being ageist because you feel it was done to you. Both cases are unprofessional, and two wrongs still a wrong make. if you don't like how you're being introduced/referred, I would recommend a 1:1 discussion to address it with the person(s) responsible for the actions. I have worked with several people significantly older than me when i started my career and turns out they thought those kinds of terms were endearing. Regardless of the intentions, if you don't like it say so but also be aware it may not be malicious/derogatory.