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Can your job force you to use vacation days when the office is closed?

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Can your job force you to use vacation days when the office is closed? I was hired 6 months ago at a small non-profit. There are less than 5 workers, including me. I am full- time and do get benefits. The role came with 15 vacation days. When I was hired, I was told the office was closed during Christmas week. I assumed this was additional paid time off. Instead, I later learned that we are essentially forced to use 5 vacation days during the office closure, as the executive director will not allow any unpaid PTO. Is this legal?

For other reasons, I'm not sure I'll be in this position more than a year. But the director has also forced me to use 6 additional vacation days this year alone. I requested 4 hours a week PTO to take a 6 week class ( or to come in early/stay late). It seemed like an attempt to punish me, as she was almost enraged that I had signed up for a class. So instead of using max 3 days of PTO to take the class, I am being forced to use 6 days (she told me not to come in for the whole day and forced me to take 6 days off, one per week). Comments were then made that if I were to stay, this would leave me with only 3 vacation days for the entire year- since I must use 5 days for the Christmas office closure.

She also made sure to remind me that I get no sick pay, and any sick days would also come out of my PTO. We each used one day this year for a snow day closure.

The class is a professional certificate that is relevant to my role (I have a master's degree).

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  1. Anonymous

    Wow, this is robbery. Can’t say if it’s illegal but I’d leave ASAP

  2. anna gillmor

    Multiple red flags.

    My office is also de facto closed the week between Christmas and NY. I do take PTO but would have the option to work remotely or work in the ghost town. They are legally required to give you 12/25 and 1/1 as Federal holidays.

    Much more distressing is your Director’s punishing/retaliating actions regarding a class.

    Asking for 4 hrs a week of Flex Time should be No Big Deal - could be one extra hour each day, ideally, no problem, or 4 hrs PTO if absolutely needed. Forcing you to take the whole day screams retaliation to me.

    Why shouldn’t you take a class? Why shouldn’t this Director be rewarding a staff member for a commitment to developing skills and lifelong learning? Is this person scared that you’ll use the class to leave or to compete with them? All of this strongly implies an insecure and retaliatory Director - bad news, sadly.

  3. Anonymous

    100% this!

  4. Anonymous

    Yep, legal. Doesn't make it right or more palatable, but it is legal.

  5. Anonymous

    Legal. Yes it is.

    Not very nice at all.

  6. Anonymous

    That's very tacky and unethical; legal though.

    You can do MUCH better....polish the resume

  7. Elizabeth Hicks

    yes, a bad job will force you to use PTO for EOY.
    even if you don't celebrate. if you don't vibe with them they can find reasons to get rid of you. get rid of them first. that being said, most of the workplaces I've been at would not allow you to take a class DURING your scheduled shift, pto or not. you would be expected to do this on the weekend if FT. (unless they send you, most don't care about relevant skills. you're expected to keep that up in your off time.)

  8. Anonymous

    I understand the company policies but why should any of us work in an environment that treats us like children and isn’t willing to support growth. The manager frankly just seems unkind and controlling. Not a great way to build an effective team.

  9. Anonymous

    Sorry about your miscommunication but your assumption was wrong to do so. Should have asked for clarification up front. Now, I'm not a jerk, BUT it doesn't feel good, I get it to be 'forced' to use those days. My question is if you're out of those days what do they do then? Also, Sick days should be taken out of pto, but IMO it can be optional. Snow Day closures are very company driven on what they want to do. That should IMO also be optional. For your class, I agree with them, you scheduling during working hours should have been approved prior, it's not mentioned, and they don't have to approve half days, again it's their policies. I feel a lot of missteps of asking the right questions.

  10. M reyes

    I too have this set up. Company closes for Christmas and you are forced to use PTO. Not common but it happens. The other point it was your choice to take the class and their choice to allow you to take the PTO. Sounds like you want them to accommodate you instead of you trying to fit into this new place

  11. Anonymous

    It seems to me that the manager is being ridiculous- why not support the employee’s PD? I would not have even required her to take PTO when she was at the class but would have supported her finding a solution to balance work and the class- especially if they have such limited PTO.

  12. Maggie Stone

    What an annoying policy.
    Not cool at all. That being said, I don’t mean to be harsh, but I probably would have had a conversation with management about if and how the time off would work before I committed to the class.

  13. Anonymous

    I received a scholarship and would not have attended otherwise (cost is over 5000) I informed her immediately about the scholarship and asked for the time off.

  14. Erica Nicholas

    My job in a hospital does similar. You have to take PTO for sick time, LOA or any days the department closes. I don't expect to be paid for these days and would prefer it be my choice to use the PTO.

  15. Kate Hopkins

    Yes they can make you use vacation time for a regularly scheduled office closure. They probably should have made that policy clearer up front before hire.

    However, I would absolutely question the somewhat vindictive approach of the ED about your request to attend professional development. I find it hard to understand the rationale behind making you take an entire PTO day, except as a way to make you think twice in the future about asking for anything from her. Leaders with that narrow-minded mindset aren't worth following.

  16. Rachel

    I was going to say the same thing. I had to have my employees use PTO for a scheduled week of closure but that wasn't my decision to make - it was the companies unfortunately

  17. Anonymous

    I just realized how fortunate I am. However, depending on the state and company policy, they should provide Paid Sick Time and Paid Protected Time. If the company chooses to have a snow day, it is not technically time off, and an employee should be able to elect not to be paid for that day since they did not choose to close. Regarding the time off at Christmas, if it said "Paid Holiday" and "# days of PTO", the description was deceptive. Small businesses may not have extra money to accommodate employee needs, but they make up for it in a family atmosphere that is more understanding. That does not seem to be the case here, as they run things like a large corporation but accommodate employees on a small business scale.

    I agree that it would have been better to ask about taking PTO for the class before signing up, but I understand your point of view. Does the handbook state that you may take PTO in 30-minute to 1-hour increments at your discretion? If so, the manager is being petty.

    In my opinion, it may be best to look for a new job.

  18. Anonymous

    Based on the # of employees it’s completely possible they don’t have to adhere to state or federal regulations. Sometimes small businesses are exempt to having to provide as it would be a hardship to their business.

  19. Anonymous

    Thank you all for your comments. I do want to add that I received a major scholarship to attend this program. Without it, I would be unable to attend. I was informed of the scholarship one month before the class started, and informed my boss immediately.

  20. Anonymous

    If the class is during business hours, I suppose I see why they are miffed. But it’s petty to require full 8 hrs leave and I do hope they’ll see that a staff member working on their PD is ultimately a good thing for the org.

    IMHO there’s a transition that happens at some point where skilled professions and/or trusted employees are trusted to make up hours. It’s not McDonalds.

    Enjoy the class and I hope you can make peace at your employer.

  21. Anonymous

    Yes this is totally legal. I had to use PTO every year for the Friday after thanksgiving - it wasn’t even an option to work or take it unpaid, they just let you go negative into your PTO bank if you didn’t have the 8 hrs. It sucks but it’s something some employers do because it would be a hardship for them otherwise.

  22. Anonymous

    SOX audit requirements and procedures advise employers that each employee should take time off, it varies how much for audit purposes. If your a non-exempt employee, and the company is closed

    and you can’t work because of no access to your employer it should have been presented to you at the time of employment or in an employee handbook

  23. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Most companies in my world now use PTO. initially, this was to avoid employees from lying and saying they were "sick". Now, if you are sick or whatever the reason is, you have Paid Time Off and use it for what you will. I have always thought this is a good idea and has reduced lying.

  24. Stephani Schupbach

    I'm sorry this happened to you. It's not fair. I don't have any advice, but wanted to add my story so you know what you describe isn't uncommon. I worked for a large federal government entity as a contractor. We were forced to use PTO if the office closed, whereas the federal employees we worked alongside did not. That meant that during all of the snow closures, office floodings, or worse, government shutdowns (which lasted more than a month in 2018), we had to take PTO or choose not to be paid. Luckily, the kind souls at my company who weren't on federal contracts donated their PTO to those of us who were affected. There are more than 4 million federal contractors the last time I checked, and I'm fairly certain this is the setup they all have. The training situation was a whole other mess. What I've learned from all that is to ask very pointed questions about benefits when presented with an offer, and not make any assumptions about PTO, FMLA, or professional development/training.

  25. Anonymous

    every job should have a memorandum of understanding - it should be stated there how this should be handled. Where I work - they close Christmas week, and we have the choice to use accrued time or not get paid, then they do something called smoothing where you get a little less in the following paychecks. I use the time I have banked and get paid. You've only been there six months and may not have time accrued yet.

  26. Anonymous

    Yes, it is legal. Because you work for a non-profit with only five paid workers, many things one expects to be covered by labor laws are not applicable for non-profits under a specific size (either 20 or 50, I think). This includes a requirement for unemployment insurance. The last one I worked for required non-holiday office closures to come out of personal or vacation time (the employee got to choose which), and if they had none, they were allowed to use a sick day or go unpaid. The days included the day after Thanksgiving, Good Friday (it was incorporated as a church), and snow days. Other things weren't required, but I forget what they are. Some of this may vary by state, but that is my experience. I was able to negotiate any time off for conferences and other continuing education relevant to my work. I always did so before enrolling, and they often paid for the fee (once, I think they paid half for one that was a little more expensive.) I know that companies are not required to pay for or grant PTO for continuing education, but when it is a job requirement, and they hire you with the understanding that you would complete it, most are gracious enough to give you at least the time to do so.

  27. Anonymous

    I think you are expecting a lot, especially for a nonprofit...
    During the week between christmas and new year's , you can also elect to be unpaid, right?.. And you should be aware that you have no sick days, and have an understanding of the personnel policy when you get hired... And did you check with your boss and ask about taking half days before signing up for the class?... You probably should have done so since this is a small organization...

  28. Jasmine Acosta

    I have no option to take unpaid PTO, thats the caveat here.

  29. Megan Westrum

    I believe this is legal… in my state anyway. It really sucks they did not provide these details before you started.

    Honestly I feel the same way you do. I would let them know that I will be working on x project for the week while the office is closed. If you work, you have to be paid - whether it’s approved or not.

    Just know, you may get wrote up if this was not approved work time. If this is the case… kinda shows the professionalism of the company and I wouldn’t last much longer there either. LOL

    Make sure in the future, you run courses that you’re taking through your manager and see what is approved for Flex Time.

    On the bright side, if you look for a new position make sure you ask these PTO policy questions when you have an offer in hand. :)

  30. Anonymous

    For most employers in the US, getting PTO is subject to manager approval, so basically if your manager says they will only approve up to 10 days of PTO (so that you have 5 at the end of the year to cover the closure week), I'm not sure there's that much you can do about it, unfortunately.

  31. Leader135412

    That is really being taken advantage of. I work for a non-profit. I get 20 days PTO and 15 paid holiday's. I never heard of them taking PTO to cover holiday's. We are not closed during Christmas week. So if you used all your PTO before Christmas, what are they gonna do then ? You won't get paid for that week but if it's important to you to use your time the way you want to, come up with a plan.

  32. Abbi Gold

    I have worked for a company that had this exact policy. Hated being forced to take PTO on a peak travel week.

  33. LORI-ANN BURLINGAME

    During your new employee orientation, did you receive copies of the employee handbook and any other policies/procedures? If you did, did you read them?

    Check your employee handbook and other company documents -- to see if this is included. In addition, remember, small non-profits do not have the same budget as do other companies/organizations.

  34. Anonymous

    Well, your boss is definitely a big B. Sounds like she treats people like the organization owns them. Get what you need from this place and move on.

  35. Anonymous

    That is tough. Check your employee handbook on leave policy which they expect you to know of, in the first week as part of your onboarding. If it states otherwise, you can ask them for a proper leave allowance as agreed by you when you started.

  36. Anonymous

    I don't know what state you work in, but employers must give full-time employees 40 hours of paid sick time per year in New Jersey.
    It is earned sick time monthly, but an employer cannot interchange it with PTO. Also, the state of New Jersey requires unemployment insurance and family leave. Check your state laws as to the legality of what they are doing

  37. Karen

    Sadly, non profits get away with this kind of stuff all the time. I'm assuming much of it is due to them having a very small staff, they are able to skirt certain rules. I would make plans to find a better position and start looking soon, as it sounds like it is not a supportive environment.

  38. rgstaffing@bellsouth.net

    Many companies have this in place and not just not for profit or "very small staffs". It is your responsibility to do your due diligence before you accept a job by asking the recruiter or the company what the sick and vacation policy and PTO is. So nobody is "getting way with anything" simply your lack of detail work before you accept a job.

  39. Karen

    Easy, I'm not the OP okay? I agree with what you are saying. In my previous comment, I'm merely speaking to the OP's description of their managers behavior, which is somewhat unrelated to the PTO. Also, they do "get away" with a lot because of laws on the books in certain states in the US. Many countries in Europe have guaranteed leave policies across the board, etc. So yeah, unfortunately it's all on the job seeker/employee here in US to get the fine print about leave policies.

  40. Joelle91

    This is an unfortunate reality (of working in the USA, anyway). I previously worked for a large, publicly held corporation — our plant was closed one week between Christmas and New Year’s AND one week in July, and as employees we were forced to use our vacation time during BOTH of those weeks. As an employee who got 15 vacation days per year, that only left me with a handful of days off over which I had any autonomy. For reasons unrelated to this, I ended up quitting. Prior to leaving, my manager failed to tell me that any unused vacation time could not be cashed out upon leaving — it was use it or lose it, and I found that out the hard way. I learned my lesson to always familiarize myself with company policies ahead of time, because unfortunately if you don’t look out for yourself, no one else will. If I were you, I would move on as soon as possible.

  41. Zeecil Kimmel

    I worked for a large well-known company that shuts down every year the last week in December. And we had to take PTO. It is a way for a company to get rid of debt on the books - as vacation is something "owed" to the employees. My new job allows only 40 hours of carryover so any hours extra at the end of the year go into the company's pockets. I agree with all other posters that knowing the company vacation policy ahead of time is important.

  42. Anonymous

    This is such a gray area. I was fortunate enough years ago to work for a company that closed down for the week between Xmas and New Years', but paid employees for that time. I always remember being able to take whatever vacation time I was allotted (it increased with each year of employment), in addition to the holiday shutdown. My last job? I left because I virtually could not get ANY time off. I was part-time, but told in the letter of offer, my employment included one week off per year (paid). The first year, I got 4 days. Another person, same start date, same job (but fewer hours) got 8 days. The second year, I was ordered to "rescind" my request for a few days off--paid or UNpaid--after a full year of working. I never called out sick in the two years I was there. When I checked my employee account while quitting, I found I'd earned 40 hours of unused PTO. I brought this to my boss's attention and she apologized--but quickly changed PTO to "sick time," which she then told me was not "payable" when an employee quit. I think she broke every employment law in the book but, truthfully, I was so glad to get out of there and have my life back, I didn't bother pursuing anything legally. Note: This was a woman who wouldn't pay for air freshener for a single bathroom I shared with several maintenance men! Enough said.

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