HR policy took me by surprise and has me in a quiet quitting mode.

Anonymous

January 5,2024 at 7:22PM UTC

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HR policy took me by surprise and has me in a quiet quitting mode. Recently, I took 3 weeks of vacation with my boss' approval, realizing I would be borrowing against PTO time that hasn't yet been accrued. I received a message from our payroll manager that I exceeded the company's policy on how much PTO can be borrowed from the next year (this is the last pay period of 2023), and they would be deducting the hours in excess from my pay. When I looked up the policy, there is no mention of deducting pay, so asking about this, the HR manager and our CEO had a discussion, and they said the 'policy still stands per HR Labor Laws'. I can understand if this is the policy, but feel it should be spelled out clearly in writing. I am most frustrated with how it was handled - no contact from my boss or HR, just a 'deal with it' mentality. I am a seasoned professional, and have never heard of docking salaried employees pay for this reason. Has me demotivated and job perusing on LinkedIn. Thoughts from the community on this?

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AnonymousJanuary 5,2024 at 7:59PM UTC
I think as seasoned professionals, we never assume a single point of approval on such matter is sufficient.
HR and CEO should have, at the very least, been included in your notice of deviation from policy with your boss copied as signing off. That way all the necessary parties are aware and there is agreement of how compensation would be handled. Especially given that it was at year end.
Interesting that your boss ran for cover on the issue when he approved the pto to begin with. All the more reason to never depend on his support.
Kat ReelJanuary 5,2024 at 8:56PM UTC
I think the approval process does depend on the company. For my company, it is by boss approval. We're not to send anything to HR. I would provide documentation where the boss approved and read up on the HR Labor Laws to see if it clearly states that.
Lisa OGradyJanuary 5,2024 at 9:14PM UTC
I agree. Sounds like the boss okayed it then turned their head when questioned. Should have stood by their word.
If you had the okay in writing I’d produce it for HR.
AnonymousJanuary 5,2024 at 8:53PM UTC
I think you should have clarified the policy with HR before you left to make sure this was okay. Your boss should also have the correct information to give to the employees. I would never assume this is ok unless you talk with HR directly. They are the gatekeepers of company policy. It is frustrating to be told one thing and something completely different happens
AnonymousJanuary 5,2024 at 10:22PM UTC
As a professional clarification prior would have been prudent. I understand you felt you leaned into the right partners in business though. Did you get that approval in writing and if so, did you ask how does that work for me using PTO that I haven't earned? Seemed like some missed opportunities to going into this with a clearer understanding. The good thing is, IMO, you will be deducted but get those future pto opportunities back. If you can make it work, then do. It comes down to your immediate supervisor getting you the answers and if they don't know them they should be reaching out to those that do. No one else is accountable, IMO.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 1:30AM UTC
I have borrowed and cashed out vacation that had rolled over from a previous year and have never been treated this way. I wish I had something that I could give you in the way of advice, but I am at a loss. I would only suggest a sit-down with your manager to determine how he could approve this when it was against company policy. If someone else had done it, that presents a real problem, as it shows a double standard. "Just deal with it" is a cop-out, not an answer.
Joan Williams, Senior Talent Acquisition SpecialistJanuary 6,2024 at 1:45AM UTC
Let me preface this by saying I'm in Talent Acquisition, not HR or Legal, but something about "'policy still stands per HR Labor Laws'." sounds fishy to me.
There really are not that many laws around PTO - that tends to be company policy, not actual law. What may be the law is the company is required to follow their own company policies.
The first thing I would do is get a copy of your Employee Handbook in case they try to change it to update it to reflect this specific issue. Then I would consider reaching out to whatever agency in your state deals with employer misconduct.
If it is not their stated policy, they may be required to pay you. Especially since it was company approved.
Good luck!
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 1:29PM UTC
Yes, that language seemed odd to me too.
OP, you say there is nothing in the policy about deducting pay, but is there something that specifies how much PTO you can advance? If you exceeded that, then whoever approved it without alerting you that it would be a problem also bears some responsibility for the confusion. But if the policies say clearly that you can take only up to X days in advance, then you did not technically have the full three weeks of PTO at the time and so the company may be within its policies and legal rights not to pay you. As Joan says, I would check with someone knowledgeable about labor laws in your state, province, country, etc.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 1:46PM UTC
This is not correct. The vacation policy at a company circumvents any handshake agreement this employee and manager came up with. If it states she only gets 5 days of vacation during a certain period then she only gets those days during that period. Pushing the envelope and reaching out to agencies and what not could put a target on her back because she essentially violated the policy.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 2:31AM UTC
I’d go.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 3:08AM UTC
I feel this is pretty standard. If you don’t have leave, and take leave, they give you Leave Without Pay.
Sue Gordon- retired Career CoachJanuary 6,2024 at 1:28PM UTC
Sounds like you’ve taken a lot of leave last year!
This was your boss’s responsibility as they approved it. In my world some accommodations should be made if you have it in writing that you could do this. But it is their company and they are choosing to enforce their policy. Do you have a history of exhausting leave and borrowing against the next year? Have others done this and the company is trying to put some bounds on the practice?
It is typical to grant leave-without-pay when PTO is exhausted. How many hours are we talking about? 1 day or all 3 works? If a day or 2 let it go. Not worth the battle.
Also when the policy is that you can only use what you’ve accrued to date, as described, it is unusual to permit people to take unearned leave.
A final note. I believe there are some pretty strict accounting laws around accrued leave, I defer to experts, but I think it’s possible management is telling the truth and they can’t grant this request without penalty to the company. Anyone out there with this expertise?
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 1:43PM UTC
If you borrowed against 2024, know that if you leave they will take any of that borrowed PTO left to be earned and withhold it from your last check.
Maybe no one has ever had to borrow that much time before?
Trina HarrisJanuary 6,2024 at 3:57PM UTC
The payroll mgr said they have always handled this situation in this way, so I am not the first. I’m sure they will deduct any borrowed time from my last paycheck, so no surprise there. Thanks for your feedback.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 3:49PM UTC
I’m in the Uk so possibly different but, you can exceed your holiday leave with permission (e.g. in some fields the summer holidays are quiet so ppl take off with their kids) but any time that exceeds your annual leave for the year is unpaid leave. The point of holiday is to give you a break throughout the year so borrowing against a future year would not be permitted and you can usually only “roll over” a few days from a previous year or you lose it.
Heather HaalandJanuary 6,2024 at 4:03PM UTC
I’ve borrowed PTO from numerous companies in advance of earning it. It is your responsibility as the employee to understand the rules are PTO but managers should know what’s acceptable. I agree it’s very frustrating that your manager didn’t communicate to the appropriate people about your situation and get approval. I’d watch for other signs to see if they’re setting you out.
Lisa McCartneyJanuary 6,2024 at 4:38PM UTC
My first question would be did your manager put it in writing that you could borrow? If so, some of this should fall back on them. I can see why companies don't want to work on advanced PTO, what if you leave before you have accrued your allotment used? You would have to pay it back anyways and logistically speaking it is a pain (not that it can't be done).
If they are claiming labor laws maybe research that instead. Know what that entails.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 5:19PM UTC
We are allowed to borrow in the same calendar year but when it involves multiple years, it is too confusing.
the reason it was cut was a boss let an employee do this. They took 3 weeks at Christmas. They came back on January 2 but had to use Jan 2-5 as PTO because they borrowed it for their extra week in December. They quit in July and fought to get the week of pay. Since they were at work on January 2-5, they could prove it with emails/ calls/etc, our company was forced to pay. Now you can only take unpaid if you use extra in same calendar year.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 5:50PM UTC
Run this by the EEOC in your area. Companies can cap vacation pay and if they do accrue they can put you into the negative. If they don't take this off of your accruals they could be legally required to pay out if the accrual still happens in their payroll system. Check with the payroll provider if they outsource the function. Good luck.
Sylvia Hollingworth ReichleJanuary 8,2024 at 2:00PM UTC
This isn’t an EEOC issue and doesn’t violate any DOL WH laws. Salaries can be reduced in full week increments as unpaid time off. Employers may not reduce a weekly salary if the employee worked a partial week.
misskelleypJanuary 6,2024 at 7:48PM UTC
Honestly, this is why I always try to not allow "borrowing" against future PTO accruals. If you have the time, great, take it. If you don't, then, with approvals, you can take it unpaid. That is so much simpler and no one is confused. Obviously your company should have a more clearly worded policy, and it's upsetting to be docked after the fact, but, in fact, you did not have enough PTO in your bank for the amount of time you took off. I'd just move forward. If you like the job and supervisor, then you have to shake it off. If you can't shake it off, then your best option is to find another job. But bear in mind that not many employers will allow borrowing of unaccrued PTO. Good luck.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 7:57PM UTC
I feel it’s pretty common to have unpaid time off if you exhaust your PTO, if they actually approve the additional time off.
It’s less common to borrow against future PTO accrual.
AnonymousJanuary 6,2024 at 9:21PM UTC
I think how she handles this depends on if the agreement was oral or in writing. If her boss approved an official request in writing, the company can reprimand the boss and find a way to pay the OP her leave. If it was an oral approval-- say a coffee-room discussion and the boss wasn't looking at her leave balance-- then the boss and OP are equally at fault and the leave-without-pay is probably appropriate and unavoidable. Remember, we do not know the boss or management's side of the story here. I have had an employee who took excessive amounts of leave- first I was peer to them, and had been told they were on a different leave schedule due to their tenure. Then I became their supervisor and was surprised to see they accrued at the same rate as the rest of us. When I finally decided to push back on one request-- they were out of leave and had recently returned from a multi-week overseas vacation-- they presented a list of "extra hours" worked-- not approved or even needed overtime-- and asked to pay-it-forward in terms of leave accrual-- in other words, take the leave against future accrual and they wanted hour-for-hour comp time (exempt, salaried position). As it had hit the point where it wasn't fair to their peers, and in violation of several policies, I declined the leave. My predecessor had been pretty flexible with them...and a sense of entitlement prevailed and more and more flexibility was requested. The employee didn't feel my denial was fair, but if someone is consistently running out of leave and getting creative to take long vacations, it's a problem. So, anyway, I read this post with a semi-cynical perspective based on experience. It could be this is the first time the OP had to borrow against future leave, but maybe there is a reason HR and upper management said "no."
AnonymousJanuary 7,2024 at 1:46PM UTC
Of course you’re frustrated that your boss agreed and now you’re surprised with docked pay and a lean paycheck.
But.
This seems like a case of you, your supervisor and HR not discussing beforehand how this would work and then being unpleasantly surprised.
That’s a buzzkill after a nice vacation for sure. But lesson learned. I’d say let it roll off and refocus on getting back into your projects.. You’re not in trouble. Your boss was likely ignorant of the policy (maybe no one had done it in a while) and ferreting out the details was not their priority.
Ambar PiconJanuary 7,2024 at 3:00PM UTC
There is not enough info to really say if things were done above bar. However, you can request a written response with some detail beyond “HR laws”. At the very least, which ones. That way you can better understand their perspective.
Beyond that, my guess is they wanted to button up 2023 nicely, so they didn’t really what to allow borrowing into the next year. This went under their radar until the aftermath and now they are trying to fix this. Unless it really caused them an HR headache, I think they should have met you halfway. Meaning, state that if you left the company before you accrued that borrowed time they will deduct it from your last paycheck.
All that said, if you really want to resolve this amicably, you need to be open to their perspective. That means take a moment to put aside any negative emotions and try the 5 Whys approach with them. You may both get some closure on this.
Molly FJanuary 7,2024 at 5:21PM UTC
I can go 5 days "in the hole" when taking vacation. This is because we are paid one week behind. So if anyone is negative on vacation & quits, the company can use the unpaid week to pay back those days. It's a valid policy that I understand & support. I don't know why you thought you could go so far in the hole. That would be quite stupid of the company.
AnonymousJanuary 7,2024 at 10:30PM UTC
She thought so because that what she was told by her manager. We can borrow ahead more than just five day at my job.
atalie olivaJanuary 7,2024 at 6:04PM UTC
Sorry you had to experience this and it's a pain to have to hear after coming back from vacation. Your manager is at fault here because normally when something like this happens they should have a conversation with HR beforehand to explain how to approach this situation. I worked in HR for the last 6 years and many times we have to explain that we normally advise to have this conversations with employees before they go on vacation. To avoid unexpected surprises. Curious to know what you think about this.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 3:05AM UTC
i appreciate your response, and this was not a hardship for me. This company does not have mature HRIS systems, so this was a verbal agreement with my boss. Lesson learned about management style. I’ll bring it up professionally in my next 1:1 with my boss, but am not expecting anything more to come of this.
atalie olivaJanuary 9,2024 at 9:07PM UTC
Best of luck in this conversation.
AnonymousJanuary 7,2024 at 7:15PM UTC
This is no way to start the new year, and I'm sorry it is happening, but this is something that should have been addressed when you requested the time off. However, I can understand that your manager might not have been aware of the policy, but they should have run this by HR first.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 1:46PM UTC
having worked in HR for over 30 years I have not come across a company that did not let you borrow against your future PTO with the stipulation if you left before you honor the accrual. You would have to pay it back, but not to be deducted during your employment if you exceeded the amount you had in your accrued bank, especially after it was approved by your manager.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 2:04PM UTC
I've worked in HR for nearly two decades, and it is not unusual to borrow against future accruals, with the caveat that you'll need to pay back if you leave the company before it would've been accrued. What seems to be missing here is your boss; have they weighed in on what payroll/HR/CEO has said? They approved your leave, but then payroll/HR/CEO seem to have overridden that. Even if your boss was wrong to approve advancing the leave, that's a management problem, not a you problem, and the company should've honored what was approved, and consider tightening things up for "next time".
Marcia SmithJanuary 8,2024 at 2:30PM UTC
This happened to me too - for the week that my momma passed away. I could not believe that an employer could be so insensitive during the most traumatic event of my entire life.
This is why so many women here talk about toxic workplaces - it's because they ARE toxic.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 6:14PM UTC
It's not insensitive, it's business. I don't understand why people expect employers to make emotionally based decisions. They have to treat everyone equally & apply policies equally. If they let one person take time they have not accrued, then they have to do it for everyone. Policies should be set up front & then applied equally, regardless of circumstances.
Marcia SmithJanuary 8,2024 at 6:27PM UTC
I DEFINITELY expect employers to treat me like a human being and NOT a robot!!! If they want my loyalty, then they need to support me at work and ensure a work/life balance with compassionate responses when i have a family crisis.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 8:44PM UTC
I couldn't agree more. There is one set of rules and if a company started to play favorites, they would go belly up in no time.
Milissa JacobsJanuary 8,2024 at 2:35PM UTC
I'm trying to understand. They allowed you to be away for 3 weeks, while only having two weeks of time off, but they are going to deduct from your pay the week that you didn't work. Are you angry because they didn't give you that extra week of pay?
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 2:55PM UTC
No - angry because she thought she could go in the hole for PTO and they didn't tell her it would be LWOP....
Marcia SmithJanuary 8,2024 at 6:26PM UTC
It seems to me that she is angry because her vacation was approved - and she was not told anything about policies that would affect her pay - UNTIL she had already returned from the vacation. Anything that affects pay should be clearly communicated to employees - and ideally in writing.
AnonymousJanuary 8,2024 at 8:32PM UTC
I'm not angry, more disappointed that this was not communicated to me by my boss at the time I requested (I only went over by 2 days). Mine is not an isolated incident, and IMO they should update their policy (last updated in 2017) to reflect this to avoid misunderstandings in the future. If I had known this at the time I was requesting PTO, I would not have asked for the full 3 weeks, and in my discussion with my boss, I did ask if there would be an issue with this, and there was no mention of pay deductions. Communication is key for managers, and anything that affects employee pay can definitely be demotivating if not talked about. Also, this company does not have a system to request PTO - it's just verbal or email notifications. Unfortunately, I did not document this in an email.
AnonymousJanuary 9,2024 at 3:59PM UTC
This is correct, any time you for. have an accrued pto, the rest of the time away is unpaid. it is standard. Some companies allow you to borrow from future PTO with a prior approval, but that is not much and it varies by company.
Milissa JacobsJanuary 8,2024 at 8:48PM UTC
This is an excellent explanation.
maria roseJanuary 8,2024 at 11:57PM UTC
Taking time off--and not understanding PTO rules of carryover and "borrowing" from the next year is a big misconception in understanding how payroll hours are listed on your paycheck. Even if you get paid a salary, the hours are broken down on your paycheck beyond what taxes are taken out. Maybe in this company, HR handles the payroll department on top of the paperwork. Still, in either case, every employee should know at the beginning of each year exactly how much PTO they have broken down into various allotments--sick pay, vacation days, personal time off, etc. In most employment workplaces, any increases in PTO occur after the specific employee's anniversary hire date--but if the employee was hired to start on January 1st whatever year, that's their hire date to base time employed and will be explained in detail in the employee handbook, when and if PTO time is increased.
For this individual OP to assume that paid PTO from the next year, would be applied was an assumption on their part and to be mad and upset because they were not supposed to get paid and have to pay it back because they also didn't check the employee handbook and read it correctly. They should be happy they at least got those 3 weeks off ( I am venturing into a guess that the 3 weeks went from mid-December through the first full week of January, probably falling into the end of the business year for the company when everything ends and starts financially for the company. And this OP knew fully well they had used up all their PTO with the first 2 weeks of their requested time off and were hoping to get paid for the 3rd week using the following year's PTO. I hope for this OP's sake they keep better track of their accumulated PTO when planning time off. They should consider themselves lucky they have a job that allows them so much time off but they also need to realize that the PAID part of the time off has limitations and to not assume they can get every day taken off as a pide time off.
AnonymousJanuary 9,2024 at 2:01AM UTC
At my company everyone gets screwed over by the HR PTO policy, which is so convoluted even if you read it, you won't understand it. Some earlier than others, and when it happens everyone feels like it's a personal attack. They only allow EVERYONE (hourly and salaried) 3 days of PTO in advance. After that, salaries get docked. Sounds like your manager didn't know the fine print, shame on them, but your time/pay feels the effects...welcome to the world of companies! If this were the only bad thing, and most everything else is good, move on past this one thing. You've learned a lesson, and will navigate it more to your advantage in the future.