PIP (fabricated) follow-up

Anonymous

January 10,2024 at 4:28AM UTC

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PIP (fabricated) follow-up

Hi Fairygodbosses!

Well, I have come to the end of my PIP and have my follow up meeting on Thursday! Unfortunately, I have not found a job yet but I remain positive.

I took the advice of others to not quit, but I do believe they will term me on Thursday. I have NEVER been terminated before nor have I ever been on a PIP. For the record, I did write a rebuttal because the PIP was laced with lies.

I’ve been with the company for several years but new leadership came on board recently. He is a lying bigot but I have no more fight in me.

I don’t know if I will receive severance but at least I have accrued vacation to take with me.

I still have time to quit to save face but still not sure what to do.

I am in the twilight of my career with about 4 years left to retirement. Never thought it would end this way but such is life.

If anyone has been in this situation and had a PIP follow up meeting, please let me know how one would prepare for such a meeting. The strange thing is that they set it for noon. I thought most would be set for the end of the day so one can leave with some dignity.

I also found out that my assistant is scheduled to meet with the HR team right after my meeting. I am a recruiting manager and have a recruiting assistant. HR has been trying to have her work on their team for almost a year.

Let me know your thoughts or if you have any advice. I am at a loss.

Thank you.

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Marian DavidsonJanuary 10,2024 at 5:39AM UTC
What is not clear from your notes above is whether or not your PIP included an actual program with your manager, which provided feedback to you to enable you to improve.
If not, you can go in with your head held high and say that you are really looking forward to working with your manager once they decide how they will assist you in your improvement program. if they did not make any attempt to provide performance improvement training, then you can say that at your age, you expect that an effort will be made to give you an opportunity to improve. After all, it would be quite discriminatory, if you were to be terminated at your age without any opportunity to make any improvements or to be trained in a way to conform to your new manager’s expectations. (You are assuming that is not their intention). If they do terminate you, it is unlikely they would do so without some sort of severance package. They very well will have some sort of a letter of agreement for you to sign. You should say you will take it home and discuss it with your advisers (or say the word attorney, if they are being mean) , and that if everything is in order, you will be signing and returning it as soon as possible so you can receive your severance payment. Importantly, the language in the agreement should say that they will say nothing negative about you and you will say nothing negative about them - simple enough. No matter how much you want to rail at them and say what’s on your mind, don’t don’t don’t. Leave with dignity, say you have enjoyed the time you spent at the company, and would appreciate any efforts they could make on your behalf to help you secure another position. And that you are certain that they don’t intend to undermine those efforts.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 1:41PM UTC
I agree with all of the above.
If after all that you get terminated then get a lawyer to write a letter asking for severance and continuation of benefits for a period of time. You could easily file an age discrimination claim and I’m sure they wouldn’t want that.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 4:31PM UTC
I went through this last year. I was put on a PIP but there was no actual program to improve. It was a list of tasks to be accomplished by specific dates. It was to last five weeks, with a task finished on each Friday, one task was allowed two weeks to complete. At noon on Wednesday of the first week, I was given a set of requirements for the task. I had been asking for requirements for months and was not given direction. Those requirements meant a complete rework of the project. I finished in the middle of the following week, putting the next task at risk, and it did. The third task was to combine the code changes with another version of code changes - same app. I was to do it without any tools or assistance. The whole thing felt like sabotage. I did have all of the tasks finished by the end of the five weeks. The PIP was just a legal way to get rid of me.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 1:40PM UTC
They have set your meeting for noon as it is a termination. This way there are fewer people in the office.
I would try to see if you can't consult with an employment attorney between now and the meeting. IF you can't - remember not to sign anything at the time. Let them know you need your attorney to review the information. I know this is a termination which is different than layoff, but ask for COBRA, ask about severance and don't be afraid to use your age to your benefit if possible. Don't be afraid to ask why they never spoke to you about your rebuttal and allegations as part of the PIP plan - how are you able to correct anything if there is a perception of lies. Make them think you have an attorney already and are willing to fight this for ageism. As a side note, my mom was going through this and they tried to safe face and say her job was eliminated ( she was 69)instead of PIP termination. (they messed themselves up) They were offering no severance. She took her paperwork to an attorney, he reviewed and sent a letter to the company - she received severance and was allowed to file for unemployment and they would not contest it.
Good luck
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 1:45PM UTC
Why would you ever quit without another job? If they let you go then you qualify for unemployment. If you are an HR person why haven’t you insisted on weekly feedback during your PIP? That you are absolutely entitled to. Good that you wrote a rebuttal. There is no saving face in this situation by quitting. You are worth way more than that. A PIP is supposed to be helpful and to keep employees. It seems like a lot of wasted time if they just want you gone. So good luck, straighten up and take care of yourself!
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 1:56PM UTC
Be sure that you get paid out your PTO if you're let go. I've heard of other companies screwing people over on this!
Ally MorganJanuary 11,2024 at 2:16PM UTC
No advice. Just wanted to say that I'm sorry this happened to you and good luck.
Jenifer KrallJanuary 11,2024 at 2:51PM UTC
Some companies don't pay out the accrued PTO is you quit. Check your employee handbook before doing anything. Good luck with your next endeavor. :-)
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 4:21PM UTC
Don't quit. Let it play out and do not sign anything. If presented with paperwork tell them you need to have your attorney review it. I'm sorry you're going through this. I went through it last year. It sucks.
Cara GardnerJanuary 11,2024 at 4:41PM UTC
Keep your head held high! Don't overthink the meeting as dont want to become emotional when the conversation happens. You dont want to say anything that will come back to haunt you or give them any reason not to do full pay-outs. Agree with the comments about checking on PTO payout. I live in Georgia and companies are not obligated to pay PTO, head similar stories in Florida, So something to check / be aware of.
Good Luck!
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 5:43PM UTC
Do NOT quit. If you quit, you’re not eligible for unemployment. If they terminate you, negotiate severance, and do NOT sign a termination agreement until you have read it and someone you trust has read it. Tell them you need a minimum of a week to return the document to them. If you sign it and don’t read it, you may be signing away rights you didn’t know existed.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 6:04PM UTC
All of this.
Depending on your state and your tenure, you can get a pretty hefty severance package, in addition to unemployment.
I went through something similar, but I was sick, so they pushed me out as I physically couldn’t fight it. The letter I got from the state who reviewed my case for unemployment was the most satisfying letter because it validated everything I’d been through. I’m actually looking to sue using this letter, and all my documentation, which is basically a done deal with the state letter. Document the crap out of everything, especially with an unjustified PIP. It pays off.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 7:11PM UTC
Legally in some states she has 3 weeks because of her age.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 6:42PM UTC
This is really excellent advice.
I too struggled through my early 60's to stay employed. Ageism is real and even though it's one of the protected classes in employment, it's incredibly difficult to prove. Employers use PIPs (as you know) to oust people.
The contradictory advice from the media is to work until one is 70 and then start collecting Social Security. The reality is it's difficult to stay employed without taking a huge pay cut. Even then with years of experience and educational credentials its difficult to get a 'low' end job just to bring in some money.
I've started to wonder if the advice to wait until age 70 to collect Social Security is a whisper campaign in an attempt to stretch the current Social Security funding. Changes to improve solvency such as removing the income cap are not being implemented.
AnonymousJanuary 11,2024 at 7:10PM UTC
Chances are you are being termed during lunch when everyone is out of the offices.
Generally they will meet with others across the business to check in so calendar surf for private meetings that match up to be sure that will happen. It sounds like your instincts are likely correct. Do not sign any documents right away, being over a certain age grants you more time to sign any documents including severance ones and ask for COBRA coverage at the companies expense as well. Those costs can be super expensive to deal with. Make sure any exit documents have a mutual non-disparagement and be sure to name him if you think he might specifically bad mouth your time there. Ask for a letter of reference as well from the company for your service there. I remember well your original posting so hopefully you can close this chapter and move forward with something between now and retirement.
When you are in the meeting be sunny and calm and try if you can to keep emotions out of it and take notes on what exactly they say to you. If you can get them to agree to a scripted version of why you left that both you and they will use when inquired upon.
Saving face will have you lose any severance so do not quit. If you think there is some ageist action here, your quitting will likely negate the possibility of getting any kind of extra from them for that. A good attorney might be able to help you assess this in a brief consultation. Take screen shots of anything you can document from your emails, internal correspondence or communications. When you leave on the day they have a set amount of time depending on what state you live in to pay out your payroll amount earned, accrued vacation and all expenses. If they do not pay in the time period you are owed interest for every day they are late. Do not let them get away with that. That is separate from any severance they try to tie to things. Don't let them think you don't know about this. Good luck! I think you will be much better off in a place where your work will have the respect of your position and you are valued. Oh and don't forget sign up for UI as soon as possible irrespective of them offering any severance. When you get to that question in the UI application check the no box because until you get severance it is irrelevant.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 2:14PM UTC
Great response. Interestingly enough, many times, companies will group layoffs (PIP and restructures) together so they can get out of the ageist accusations from terminated employees.
Chriscodyc1January 12,2024 at 6:16PM UTC
All of this. I hope OP followed this.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 1:22PM UTC
Don't quit because you may still qualify for unemployment benefits depending on where you reside. I think everyone has been through a situation like yours at least once. It's amazing what management is able to get away with. Also, it amazes me who they allow in management.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 1:24PM UTC
Now I'm curious. How did it go?
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 2:01PM UTC
I was PIP'd. It was BS! I handed in the exact same work as my peers with same title and requests. I held all my meetings, had best team scores on employee surveys, and met every other outlined goal. But none of that mattered. I was still eliminated anyway. Get your severance and move on. You will be free of the stress of that position. When future jobs ask, say you took time to care for a family member and ready to return to work. Your previous employer should only verify your dates of employment and they may not say anything bad about you. And don't use anyone there as your reference. Good luck!
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 2:20PM UTC
I was in the same situation 9 months ago. I was hired as a Director. My interview went great with my boss and we agreed on work life balance expectations. As soon as I started all of that changed. I was placed on a PIP 30
days of being hired because I didn’t put enough into the job (mind you I was working 50+ hours a week already). My boss was also lying to our VP about my work and blocked my communication from them. I also submitted a rebuttal and was advised we would see how the next 60 days went.
I was working directly with HR and trying to find ways my boss and I could communicate better.
In that time, by boss did not interact with me. On the day of my PIP follow up, a different HR person was on the call and I was fired on the spot without severance. I’ve never been fired from a job until now.
Do not quit. Give yourself the ability to obtain unemployment.
I hope that was not the outcome, but if it was, I hope you were able to provide your last comments and feedback for the organization.
Teresa SoleckiJanuary 12,2024 at 3:28PM UTC
Checking in to see how it went and how you are doing?
Julie JenningsJanuary 12,2024 at 3:48PM UTC
It is hard when you are targeted for termination. Continue to look for other opportunities and be willing to look in different places than you usually do.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 3:50PM UTC
May I ask where you are based?
I can empathise with you - I was in this position late last year/early this year when I was signed off for depression and anxiety as I had burned out in the role I had been hired for (lots of internal infighting between US and UK where I was based because the US didn’t want me to do this role and my boss did and then my boss turned on me when I disagreed on a couple of things with her (everything had to be done her way even if it was wrong) and put me on PIP and made my life hell, bullying me and micromanaging me to an inch of my life. I had colleagues speak up for me, tried to raise it with HR and her boss and was told ‘you need to decide if this is the right company for you’.). When I was signed off, HR frequently called to ask me when I’d be back and eventually sent me an email to say that if I didn’t respond to their email bu eob they’d terminate me. They sent the email after 4pm. I didn’t see it until the next day, but by then I was so low and I was so afraid of being fired I told them I quit (I was still signed off sick). They never sent me anything else, they didn’t send me my P45 and they still owe me £2k in expenses. I tried to get those back but HR told me some were a few months to old and my old boss never signed them off to be paid. I eventually gave up chasing. I am only just getting better from burnout (was working 17ht days at that place) and after some therapy, but as my funds are now perilously low.
I have no clue what my legal
position is (based in UK). That situation totally messed me up and I still fret going back into work, especially after so long being off. I never had this situation before, I always outperformed at work before and have a decent amount of experience, but that woman made me doubt everything about myself.
I wish you strength and am sending all the good vibes and compassion you need to pick yourself up after this ordeal - just know you are better than this/them!
LisaJanuary 12,2024 at 4:20PM UTC
I would document the final meeting. Ask for your own witness to be present or if you can record it. If they decide to terminate you, I personally would mention that this feels age-related (since you are close to retirement and your PIP is false) and ask them if it is because of your age. Mention again that the PIP is full of falsehoods.
Ageism is real, even though nobody wants to talk about it.
Angele DaviesJanuary 12,2024 at 5:18PM UTC
PIP's are definitely used for ageism. Reason: You make too much money! They want to put your assistant in your position because they don't have to pay as much. Happened to my SO; had been a DIrector at our company since 1984, after selling the company and several acquisitions later, new company gave him a PIP for some BS excel spreadsheets, and other nonsense you would give to an analyst I. He retired instead at 59. Fight back and DO NOT QUIT! Seek legal assistance and retire early, you've most likely earned it! Good Luck!
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 7:10PM UTC
If you have to fight it, typically Unemployment sides with the employee.
AnonymousJanuary 12,2024 at 8:39PM UTC
Please post an update!
M. TaylorJanuary 13,2024 at 7:09PM UTC
That Job Search Council link you posted is non-existent.
Chriscodyc1January 15,2024 at 4:41AM UTC
I just clicked on that link to check after reading your comment and it took me straight to their site without issue.
AnonymousJanuary 15,2024 at 8:59AM UTC
We would all like to know what happened in the PIP meeting for the original poster. Please update?
na1102January 16,2024 at 5:59PM UTC
Don't quit. let them terminate you then you can file for unemployment. Prepare for your PIP meeting with all paperwork proving you did whatever they asked you to do.
sorry to say, in most cases, it doesn't matter. If they want you out, they will find a way and a reason. Keep your head up and if you are terminated, walk out with your head held high. You are probably at the top of your pay scale and they don't want to pay any more so they will make your assistant take over your position. wishing you the best - pls keep us posted.