Why doesn't DEI include hiring people of all ages?

Anonymous

February 16,2024 at 4:44PM UTC

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Why doesn't DEI include hiring people of all ages?

I"m going to throw this out there to the community as I'd like to hear from other "older" job seekers to see if they are as frustrated as I am.

I am 58 years old, have an MBA, and 30 years of mid-senior management experience in my field. In my job search I am encountering an issue where I feel like the entire panel is composed of people the age of my children, with little experience or social skills, who appear bored and distracted. Yet, they are the ones with the power, passing judgement on me.

Yesterday I interviewed with a panel of about seven 25-30 year old women who claimed their work culture was "like a family" and very inclusive. They all seemed very dismissive of me and I got the strong impression they did not want me on their team. The focus seems to be less on whether or not I have the skills to do the job, and more on whether or not I am a good "fit" - which is beginning to feel like a personality contest. Are they in the market for a a friend or an employee?

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AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 5:24PM UTC
I don't have an answer to your questions but I've witnessed ageism and experienced it since my 40s (50s now).
Penny HagermanFebruary 16,2024 at 5:58PM UTC
Boy, do I ever feel what you are experiencing! I am 61 and have about 25 years of experience in my field. I know it inside and out, from the bottom to the top. And I have managed many young people like those you describe. However, with them doing the majority of the interviewing, and even often being the hiring managers now, I definitely feel I am being discriminated against because of my age. you are right: it
is a popularity contest with them, for the most part, in my opinion. They want other people like themselves, who are younger, that they can relate to more on a personal level and be friends with at work and outside of work. I have been unemployed now for almost 15 months, and my age is definitely playing a role in not being able to get another job. You are not alone! I definitely can validate what you are feeling and experiencing.
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 6:12PM UTC
Ageism is rampant, if you feel that you were aged out of the role please speak truth to power in that company and let them know this. Yes, you are right....but to make change you have to be a part of the change.
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 7:02PM UTC
I can completely relate. I am in my mid-40s in tech. In my last role, the boss accumulated a group of 'mean girls' in their early 30s who talked down to me and made it clear I was not 'one of them' but repeatedly relied on me to do the hard, detailed work no one else on the team would do. When we shipped that product, it was poorly done but at that point I just decided that was on the manager and the mean girls, not me.
Ageism is definitely real. And for the record, I want a friendly (not best friends) work environment where we collaborate, not mean besties. And I am pretty sure that is what most grown folk want.
AnonymousFebruary 20,2024 at 9:11PM UTC
My former boss did a similar thing. They were glad to see me go. No love lost there.
sherri jonesFebruary 16,2024 at 7:07PM UTC
You are not alone, I interviewed with a tech bro punk the other day, He was arrogant and rude and made me feel so uncomfortable. No social skills and he was not old enough to have had any experience at any level in life. A good fit is code for culture, do you fit in! We have the skills it's why they called
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 7:38PM UTC
Ageism is very real. You aren't imagining things. I have experienced the whole "good fit" thing which means something completely different than skills for the job. If anything I am over qualified for my job and I get treated like a second class citizen by the rest of the team who is young enough to be my children.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 12:13AM UTC
You also need to think about the attitude you're putting out in interviews. If you've decided younger people don't have value as managers and are not comfortable discussing culture and fit then you're not going to get hired. I have hired many 50+ year old workers, but I do always consider how they are going to accept coaching from people who are younger than them in roles above them. All those questions about fit relate to that and frankly, the OP sounds like she thinks she's better than them.
Maegan, Nike Sales Rep & Career CoachFebruary 16,2024 at 7:41PM UTC
Hey Anonymous! Are you open to receiving some coaching on this?
AnonymousFebruary 17,2024 at 9:59PM UTC
Ok
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 8:07PM UTC
Ageism is real but we also need to be aware of any subconscious defensiveness. You sound like you're judging them right back.
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 8:52PM UTC
My thought is there's room for everyone and we can all learn from the experienced AND the younger generation. But until companies see it that way, ageism is alive and well. There's no right answer here unfortunately.
KatFebruary 16,2024 at 9:31PM UTC
One of things very much missing from the DEI discussion is age and agism. There are so many marginalized groups that need to be brought in (women, BIPOC, LGBTQ+, etc.) it's hard to have everyone's voices heard. Age (and agism) is one of those "invisible" biases. People might not think (or admit consciously) that they're biased against older workers, but it's obvious. Older workers have harder times finding jobs because employers think they're too expensive, not willing to learn/keep up with tech, or are looking to "coast" until retirement. There are plenty of stories here about older women struggling to find jobs. It's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to look for other jobs. I maxed out my advancement options years ago where I am, but finding something else outside of it is daunting. Companies are squandering so many good potential candidates for no reason other than age. It's very frustrating. I don't need/want to be friends (or worse family) with work people.
AnonymousFebruary 16,2024 at 10:22PM UTC
Hey there. I would say it's magnitudes more difficult to find a new role if you are over 50, which I am. I along with other folks in the 40 - 50 age range were laid off by a tech company. Sounds like ageism to me. The funny thing is, one of the roles the company posted after the lay off, had a different title but was the same role my colleague held. Ugh. Anyway, hundreds of resumes later, I'm still out of work and it's going on five months now. As a positive note, continue to build skills in whatever field you work in (or want to work in). It's good to keep your skills sharp and up to date and it keeps you in the game. Good luck out there.
JJFebruary 17,2024 at 12:53AM UTC
It does: Equity and inclusion should cover people of various ages.
Ageism is a hidden “ism” but I link it to sexism because it is too often women impacted by ageism. A company that does all of the DEI work would focus on this. But we know companies pick and choose their priorities. When job hunting, I made a rule for myself (which I know is a bit superficial) but I noted that I only wanted to work with people who had grey hair and wrinkles. Not an exact science, but I made a point to note the generational cues of those I met on interviews. If someone mentioned grandchildren or adult children I noted it, as they clearly were respected in the organization and had a few years of experience. When someone only talked about their college experience and single life, I noticed that too because those are priorities for an organization that I’m not going to be a good fit. I found a great mx at my org, but it is not easy. Bias is real and we can all work to limit it. Also that company sounds awful so consider yourself lucky that you got out.
AnonymousFebruary 17,2024 at 1:11PM UTC
This happened to me about 10 years ago.
I was interviewed by lower level managers fresh out of college. They told me they didn't think I would "fit in". I was about 43 years old at the time. This was for a job requiring a bilingual french/english skills, data analysis and customer account management for a company focusing on market research for companies. When I asked them a few questions about the company for clarification, they told me I did not do enough research and I obviously did not want the job. It was extremely passive aggressive, and one girl was actually smacking her gum and throwing a lot of "like" before in her speaking. I felt like I was being punked. Anyway, I assumed I was not getting the job. I was called by HR and said they wanted me to apply for a different role. I told them "no thank you, I will take my PhD elsewhere." It seemed to be quite a toxic environment and ages to say the least. So I was not going to put myself in that type of position.
Carol23February 17,2024 at 1:29PM UTC
When interviewing, I make sure I dye my hair to ensure that I have no gray hair. I never mention my age EVER. ESPECIALLY at work. My bosses have no idea exactly what my age is. I make sure to NOT include the years I graduated from HIGH school or college. (People typically graduate high school at 18. It's VERY easy to figure out your age from that alone. I graduated from Grad school in 1994. (Typically you should be 20 at that point. Using that info, you could assume I am currently 43. In reality, I turn 66 in April.) In my state, it is illegal to ask any question where you could determine age. If they require the year of college graduation, I just use 1994. Luckily, I don't look or act my real age. Good luck!
Margo JohnsonFebruary 17,2024 at 2:02PM UTC
Your math isn't mathing :-) A person who graduated high school in 1994 would be 47 now, give or take a year. Few people start grad school at age 20, let alone graduate. If you completed a bachelor's degree in 1994, I would figure you were born around 1974.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 9:34PM UTC
I think she only said she graduated Graduate School in 1994. Maybe the BA/BS was well before that...
AnonymousFebruary 17,2024 at 1:37PM UTC
Great question.
Margo JohnsonFebruary 17,2024 at 2:03PM UTC
"Like a family" is a red flag right there. You may have dodged a bullet.
deneane colesFebruary 18,2024 at 3:33PM UTC
Agree! My work place now says there is an emphasis on getting work out not so much socializing! When I had a health issue in September they treated me better than some of my blood family. Our workers are 23-78 and the average age 47. I am 55!
Daria Skibington-RoffelFebruary 17,2024 at 5:26PM UTC
That seems to be the reality I've noticed, as a 48 year old professional. HR departments seem to be more concerned with how well everyone can fit in with whatever work culture they are trying to impose. There may also be a bit of intimidation around someone with your qualifications and experience to the point where they feel a bit threatened.
I've been tempted to ask some of these people if Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in their workplace also includes being respectful of age; and if not, why?
AnonymousFebruary 17,2024 at 9:21PM UTC
Your experience parallels my own.
I’m very sorry to report that, starting in my 50s, my ability to get a job plummeted. Far fewer responses to my resume and far fewer interviews.
No, DEI does not appear to include age diversity. Part of the problem might be that age discrimination is not included in the Civil Rights Act, alongside prohibitions of gender discrimination, race discrimination, etc. Instead, age discrimination is regulated in another statute, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, which provides greater flexibility and fewer penalties for employers. A great book on this subject is Betrayed: The Legalization of Age Discrimination in the Workplace by lawyer Patricia Barnes.
AnonymousFebruary 17,2024 at 11:21PM UTC
I think the workplace has become cliquish from a generational aspect. I've experienced it. Please consider "the culture" prior to commitment to a company. Jobs are out there, it's just a matter of digging deeper. Don't settle
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 1:35PM UTC
Yes. You do not want to work with these unprofessional fools, like many I am in the same boat. I am 60 now and have great experience and any company would be lucky to have me. I have actually put that on cover letters because I am so disgusted with age discrimination. We can only keep trying to find a professional and decent company. There are a few.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 1:52PM UTC
Ageism is real. When I was interviewing in my mid-50s ALL the jobs went to someone younger and MUCH less experience and with fewer qualifications. I once went through 5 rounds of interviews only to have the job offered to a man spankin' new out of college.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 3:10PM UTC
How do you know who they hired?
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 1:25PM UTC
Someone much younger probably comes much cheaper. Companies figure that a less experienced person can learn on the job.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 2:14PM UTC
I actually just had a conversation with a younger co worker of mine, the other day. I'm 56, have a Master's degree and years of experience, but currently I find myself in a small company with no benefits and a very toxic environment. Underemployed, but employed just the same. Anyway, the one good thing about this company are my co workers, and I've gotten to know people from different age groups. She explained to me that "older people" tend not to be as tech savvy as the younger people, and that's why they're often not chosen for jobs. "Not everyone is like you," she explained, "where you know how to use technology so well." I argued that everyone in their 50s IS like me... we were literally the first generation to exclusively use the kind of technology that is now being used in offices. AND, the generation before me (Baby Boomers) had to have the ability to adapt from the older to newer technology. Basically we paved the way for you. But for some reason, she didn't see it that way. And granted, I opened her eyes, but before that conversation she seemed to think the younger generations were somehow magically born with this knowledge in their DNAs. If that's the reason, then it's GenX and the Baby Boomers who put it there. Anyway, in a nutshell, Millenials and Gen Z put a lot of emphasis on technology, and not so much on the other things that make someone well rounded, like communication skills, adaptability, eagerness, and the willingness to learn and change. Ironically, these are the things they think we don't have, which if you do your history homework those are the skills we needed to survive going from the 90s to now. There's a lot of misunderstanding and projection going on between the generations. But in a nutshell, ageism exists, and like any prejudice, it's based on misconceptions and ignorance. I honestly think older women need to uprise, band together, and start their own businesses. We need to start supporting each other and our plights because the way things are going, women over 45 will soon be the most underemployed group of people in this country, yet we also contain the knowledge and experience to run this country -- better than it's being run now!
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 10:25PM UTC
Hopefully, the pendulum will swing the other way. I hope to live long enough to see it!
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 3:00PM UTC
I disagree that everyone in their 50s is like you, meaning up to date with the latest technology. I'm also in my 50s but have seen a lot of older workers being laid off because they have been working in the same company 25-30 years and have refused to learn new applications, new ways of working, etc. They just want to do it the way they're most comfortable with and do not make the effort to learn. Of course not everyone does this but it's the biggest mistake I see people of all ages make in their careers - not continuing to learn and develop to match the ever-changing technology. After I was laid off from my company after 25 years I had no trouble getting a new job based on my technical skills which are a lot better than many of my new , younger co-workers because I spent years keeping up with new ways of working. Ageism does exist but if I interview you and you have the skills and experience for the job, I don't care how old you are.
AnonymousFebruary 20,2024 at 6:00PM UTC
Similarly, there are plenty of young people who are technical morons. Seriously, you wouldn’t believe some of the questions I’ve answered. Just because young people all know how to post a video on social media doesn’t mean that they understand the slightest thing about software or infrastructure.
The whole point is that age is a poor signifier of technical skill, and it’s lazy and stupid to use it as a screener when better measures are at your disposal.
AnonymousFebruary 20,2024 at 1:52PM UTC
Exactly the reason I am in the process of starting my own business. Essentially I was pushed out of my corporate job and don’t ever want to go back. It’s a lot of work starting a business, but reading this post and comments only reinforces my decision and determination. The corporate world is not at all age friendly. I am 52 and frankly over the petty nonsense in those environments. I definitely support women starting their own businesses. We need more of that.
Joan Marie VerbaFebruary 18,2024 at 2:14PM UTC
I am 70 and have been applying for jobs since I was laid off in 2018. I've applied to over 800 places. I've had interviews which I felt went well for jobs I felt I was an excellent match for, and didn't get hired. I've had resume reviews and career coaching. I network. It doesn't seem to matter how well I interview, how tailored my resume is, how many job skills I have, or how much I network. Once they realize I'm over 60 (and at some point, there's a face-to-face interview), it's over.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:17AM UTC
Joan, I am so sorry that this has happened to you.
I am 69 and have had a similar experience. Laid off in 2019 and have not gotten a paying job, although I have tried the coaching and resume review strategies that you have tried. I look younger than my age, but that hasn’t helped.
Ironically, I now volunteer at an organization that helps underrepresented talent find jobs. My suggestions on resumes, interviews, etc., work for them, so I know that my problem is not my inability to job hunt.
Cheryl BaileyFebruary 18,2024 at 3:20PM UTC
Age does affect negatively in a job search . I have been looking to switch jobs for the past 6-8 months . I know I have had some very good interviews, but then I get an email that they have chosen another person . The company I work for now has become terrible due to new corporate owners who only hire 20 - 30 year old employees . I believe that I only got this job almost 3 years ago because the manager who hired me advertised for a mature person. I jumped on this and got lucky. Now it has become a nightmare. I hired in at 30 -32 hours a week and was considered full time . Then when the new owners hired in their own corporate people they decided that any one in my position was now considered part time which means no PTO, no holidays, etc. Limited benefits . Then about 2 months ago they announced that they said that the position was changing and to expect in the near future reduced hours. They opened a larger and new location in the past month, and this makes my commute a lot longer . I am 73, and honestly do not look it, but did have to take medical leave last year to get a 2nd hip replacement . Did all the right things . I get fast response to my resume when I apply, but then comes the interview. It is very depressing and I do not see it getting any better. This puts me under a lot of stress because I know they are watching me closely because they wish to find a reason to get rid of me . Imagine working under those conditions....I am at the point of going and applying at a upscale store - delis-fruit markets. I am fairly near a few of them. They pay about what i make now and I see older workers in them all the time - why ? We show up, have great customer service skills, and the list goes on. Sometimes, I believe you just have to take a different direction . I am tired of stressing out every day and I feel it is affecting my health . Have even thought about starting my own cleaning and transportation company. I don't believe I need to work in an office to be happy. Good luck and don't be afraid to look at other areas that perhaps you have not thought of . I know my worth, but I work hard and am not ashamed of working in a nice store.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:11AM UTC
You look fabulous and are energetic and entrepreneurial. Kudos!
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 3:59PM UTC
I think a lot of employers, don’t know what they are looking for, and then trust these youthful, recent grads to determine that alignment with candidates they are screening.
it’s really not funny but it’s a joke if you know what I mean. Sometimes older candidates are just victims of being older. If you look beyond the number of their age, you find some are more energetic, more passionate, more engaged older people than others.
Some just aren’t up to speed on technology, cultural issues that now (DEI) exists in organization, etc. etc.
There isn’t necessarily a one size fits all profile for the perfect candidate and having recruited for over 30 years, I can state the perfect candidate on paper is not the perfect candidate when you put them into the working environment.
Ageism is very real so is unconscious bias about age, but if we want to work, if we need to work, as mature, older people we need to jump through the hoops, and keep throwing resumes out there. Eventually, the universe will reward you.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 12:09AM UTC
Those youthful recent grads are going to be your bosses in this situation. If you don't want them making decisions, you shouldn't work for them.
Jane BradshawFebruary 18,2024 at 4:13PM UTC
Recently I have been seeing the tagged on request for "age group" on online applications. There will be a list broken out by 10 years and ending with 60 or older. Of course there is the box to check "refuse to answer". And it is starred as mandatory to fill out. This is usually listed before the Gender, Race, Disability section. When I see that requirement, I end the application.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 10:14PM UTC
How about "recent college graduate"? That says it all!
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 2:38AM UTC
I enter prefer not to answer for EVERY field like that.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 4:42PM UTC
When I see that requirement, I think they are trying to get age diversity.
My read on it is more positive but I could be wrong!
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 10:25PM UTC
I like your positive intent POV...it's especially true if it's a company that receives government funds. Mine does and I know they are very interested in hitting all the boxes of inclusion.
I still would be nervous about answering--it's not how we we were ever taught to respond while applying and interviewing.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:08AM UTC
I just completed an application that asked for date of birth *twice.*
I am pretty sure that anyone who checks the 60+ box (and maybe the 50+ box) is eliminated, but I’d love to be proved wrong.
I’ve also heard that some firms eliminate any resumes with college graduation dates before 2000.
LA+30yrsFebruary 18,2024 at 5:13PM UTC
In order to play the ageism game, I did a few things to hide my age. I posted a much younger picture of myself on social media. I made my social media accounts private so they could not determine my age. My resume doesn't include dates, only work experience and degree information. I "dumbed" down my resume to be considered a qualified candidate and not an overqualified candidate. I opted for virtual interviews. I made sure the camera did not look up close at my wrinkles and my hair was freshly colored. Lots of pre-interview prep on my part.
Now that I have the job; I work on being a valuable asset. I remind myself that I am here to do business and stay on top of my performance. I take classes to expand my tech skills, I belong to professional societies, I belong to a mentor group, and I participate in the culture of the company. It is not enough to be an average employee.
With ageism they give us no excuses at performance. I will not allow them to use the term "confused" in discussing work strategies. My response is "Could you clarify your position?"
Ageism is alive in our culture. One day they will be us.
Above all else......You get to decide when it is too much energy for the reward of the position. If you are tired of the corporate ageism struggle, then there are other work alternatives. Try different things until you find a good fit for your life.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 4:41PM UTC
You often need to add dates in online applications.
But also, once you're in person or on camera for an interview, it is much harder to hide age.
Dr. FeeFebruary 18,2024 at 8:36PM UTC
I am experiencing the exact same thing , 61 years young/ Doctorate and 32+ years at Sr/Exec level leadership roles. The first words out of interviewer’s mouths, “So why would you want this position ?” Uhhh, because I need a JOB!
it has been very difficult to explain to a panel of ‘leaders’ that are half or less than half my age why I would be an integral part of their team.
in short I wish DEI had a greater presence in this area of organizations.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:02AM UTC
Reminds me of when I was doing hiring in my late 30s or early 40s.
I was very skeptical of resumes that showed substantial credentials when the person wasn’t employed. I’d think to myself “Why isn’t this person working, there must be something wrong…” I also was skeptical that the person with senior credentials would want a mid-level job. Frequently, my colleagues and I would classify such resumes as “over-qualified” and pass them over. If we did interview the candidate, our skepticism would be expressed in questions such as “So, why would you want this job?”or “Why are you interested in this job?”
That said, if the candidate seemed genuinely enthused about the job and had a reasonable story about why they were applying (downsizing of prior employer, wanted a change in responsibilities or working conditions), we’d listen. We also hired a couple of older workers who worked out great!
Note: I’ve had problems getting work since reaching my mid-50s, and I’m now in my late 60s. My previous skepticism about highly accomplished workers and my insensitivity in ruling out “over-qualified” workers now embarrasses me tremendously.
What I can say is that the karma comes around a lot faster than I anticipated — my experience proves it. Pass this on to the 30-somethings.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 8:52PM UTC
They was an employee who becomes a friend. Groups hire people like themselves — remember the days when tall white males with the right connections got the good job offers. There is now a different demographic doing the selection. The bias, however, is the same. It’s the reason for DEI , but insular cliques such as the one you interviewed with don’t see it.
AnonymousFebruary 18,2024 at 11:38PM UTC
I think it's best to look in the nonprofit space if you are older.
My supervisor at my old employer was probably in her 50s-60s, she had a hip replacement. She got one bad performance review from her new boss (allegedly) and got a job at a nonprofit and could be there for her new grandchild too.
Barb HansenFebruary 19,2024 at 4:00AM UTC
Or the OP knows how conduct herself in an interview and they are experiencing what many, perhaps most women-who-are-no-longer-30 experience when applying for a job, and they have come to FGB to share an experience, vent a little bit and get some feedback.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 1:53PM UTC
Age should not be a factor in employment decisions, and such discrimination is known as ageism. You may want to seek help with your resume to eliminate any information that reveals your age. For instance, you could replace your graduation year with the phrase "Transcripts available upon request" and simply mention your educational qualifications without dates.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 3:29PM UTC
I don't think her resume is the issue; she got the interview.
Emily TwaddellFebruary 19,2024 at 6:09PM UTC
Regardless of what "should" affect employment decisions, age discrimination is real, rampant, and nearly impossible to overcome. Leaving information out of your resume does nothing in the long run--we have LinkedIn profiles, after all, and I doubt that it's very hard to find out when someone graduated from college. All someone has to do is scroll down on LinkedIn to see my work history back to the 90s and it's game over. I'm 69, was laid off last June from a large consultancy, have an extremely broad background and skillset, am culturally current, but once someone sees me on a video call that's it. I've had some lively interviews on the phone and even in person, but in the end, I'm simply not worth their time. It is beyond frustrating, it's scary and incredibly depressing.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 7:31PM UTC
Same as resumes, leave older jobs off, leave graduation dates off.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 9:09PM UTC
There's no question that ageism exists, and if the people in your interview based their decision on your age, then you don't want to work for them anyways.
But you got an interview, so I doubt the resume is the issue. Have you considered practicing interviews with other people to get honest feedback about how you come off? I don't mean to be rude, but your initial post is super dismissive of young workers and comes off as though you have no interest to work for them: so maybe that transpired in your interview?
Something you could also consider is the sector in which you apply - this is just an assumption, but I could see tech startups, for instance, having lots of reasons not to hire someone who is older (legitimate or not). Maybe apply at organizations or sectors that would be more in line with adhering to DEI standards or recognizing the value that everyone can bring to the table. As an example, I work at a family violence research center that is very much aware of the different ways people are discriminated against, and tries to be as inclusive as possible in our hiring processes.
Beverly MolnarApril 26,2024 at 1:57AM UTC
I’m sorry, but people lie on their LinkedIn profiles just as often as they lie or omit information from their résumés. I know many who have and do. They don’t mean anything.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 1:53PM UTC
It does, you may not be feeling it but by the very definition it does.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 3:22PM UTC
As a hiring manager I aim for culture first, then Kails and experience. Skills can be taught, culture can’t.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 4:40PM UTC
"Culture" can sometimes mean age.
I doubt people are even aware of it, but I still think it's an unconscious bias.
"You don't fit in with the 20-somethings".
AnonymousFebruary 20,2024 at 7:46PM UTC
I have hired older workers as well as young. If you are a good fit for an already good department, I’ll take regardless of your age. I even look past what you are wearing, especially if it is an entry level position.
Beverly MolnarApril 26,2024 at 2:29AM UTC
Really? You would, for example, hire someone without the necessary education (like a college degree) on the premise that they can be “taught,” simply because they “fit in” for whatever reason?
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 3:30PM UTC
DEI?
LeahFebruary 19,2024 at 3:51PM UTC
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
Emily TwaddellFebruary 19,2024 at 6:02PM UTC
DEI, sometimes DE and I, stands for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
Joanna TaylorFebruary 21,2024 at 9:32PM UTC
Got it! Thank you so much for your elaboration!! <3 [smiling face]
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 4:09PM UTC
I'm going to start this by telling you I'm a hiring manager and am 57 years old.
I interview, on average, five people a month. I interview all ages and all education backgrounds. My first goal is to find the right mix of prior job experience. I conduct a phone interview with you, telling you the best and worst of the position (the worst being no set shift for the first six months and a requirement of covering night shifts when necessary). If you want to proceed with the panel interview, I schedule you with my hiring committee and we interview you.
Good fit is my second goal. Of course we are looking for a good personality fit, not in order to be friends with you, but so that we perceive we can work cohesively together and won't end up hating working with you—no matter how well you do the job. We already know you can do the job—I read your resume, remember? I wouldn't have called you in the first place if you couldn't do the job.
Your experience yesterday could have been because they are a bunch of jerks, in which case you dodged a bullet. I hope you remember you are interviewing them, too.
Your second paragraph reeks of condescension and defensiveness. Perhaps it's because you're venting, anonymously, and still stung by the experience. However, f you showed even a whiff of that disdain during the interview, I would have eliminated you before we ended the meeting. I have the skills to hide it from you and you might think it has to do with your age but you'll never know and I won't tell you.
Beverly MolnarApril 26,2024 at 2:23AM UTC
I hope in your hiring practices you do consider skills and experience first. If so, you probably wouldn’t end up with a situation like the OP encountered, i.e. with a whole team composed of 20-somethings who in all likelihood don’t have the kind of needed experience and perspective that a significantly older person would bring to the table. If that reeks of disdain to you, fine. I think it’s reality.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 9:53PM UTC
And speaking of ageism--you just targeted my age and suggested I should retire soon...
Why would I retire soon? I love my job and am great at it. I've built a fantastic team (ranging from 23 years to 62 years) who works well together and for the customer. I'm not fooling around by bringing in someone who can't even figure out why being a good fit IS part of the job. Having been a manager for 30 years she should know this.
I believe ageism is real. It may have even been real in this case. I also believe Anonymous comes off as defensive and arrogant—for whatever reason. Two things can be true at once.
AnonymousFebruary 19,2024 at 10:07PM UTC
I think it's because the managers and other leadership have gotten much younger and yes, they want friends mostly over a qualified employee.
Pamela RosenFebruary 20,2024 at 2:57PM UTC
Sometimes I feel like the catch-all term "corporate culture" is a free ticket to discriminate against anybody a company wants. "You aren't a good fit for the company culture" can mean anything, including age, race, religion, etc. I have been to interviews where they told me the company culture was built around skiing. It was a tech company that had nothing to do with skiing. My favorite one was a company that told me the company culture was built around the film "The Big Lebowski." It does seem like they're forming clubs and not building companies sometimes. If not, they certainly have no idea what a company culture is. As I got older in Silicon Valley, I was getting to the point where I couldn't get hired anywhere, despite having worked for top companies and being previously considered "the best in the Valley" at what I do. (I am 61.) Eventually I moved out of state and got hired at a great job almost immediately.
LeslieFebruary 20,2024 at 3:46PM UTC
I would have to respectfully disagree with you. DEI does include age as well as several other invisible diversity dimensions when the company is serious about deploying it.
It’s unfortunate that Diversity Equity and Inclusion was turned into a catch all for fears and politics.
Beverly MolnarApril 26,2024 at 1:49AM UTC
I think perhaps that was the point she was making. Ideally DEI should mean diversity and inclusion in all areas, but in practical reality, when most people think of DEI they think of race-based discrimination. I have a very liberal friend who likes to say that “the only people who are opposed to DEI are white supremicists.” Sadly I think his belief and attitude are very common.
LeslieFebruary 20,2024 at 3:57PM UTC
In an organization that is first ‘serious’, second ‘committed’ and third ‘unapologetic’ about the way politics has reshaped the intent of DEI, it DOES include age as well as several other invisible dimensions of Diversity.
it is grossly unfortunate how the fear of the few turned into the whistle of the many leading to the absolute misleading and ill directed efforts, blame and abuse of DEI on so many fronts.
in organizations who have focused on the true intent and meaning, it covers both diversity that can be seen such as but not limited to gender, ethnicity but also those that cannot be seen such as age, ability, religion, experience, capability.
The country has allowed this behavior of abandoning the truth for a lie on so many topics, DEI is merely one of them and those impacted by the resultant behavior are left in the fog of ambiguous terms that effectively cover discrimination.
AnonymousFebruary 20,2024 at 6:08PM UTC
This, unfortunately, is the difference between theory and practice.
In theory, DEI is inclusive (as the name implies) of many different dimensions of diversity.
In practice, it is often pared down to a very few specific, visible attributes, while the rest are either ignored or actively disadvantaged. Organizations are, on the whole, not very good at doing a multiple things at once. Precious few of them are able to manage effective diversity programs on a single dimension, never mind multiple dimensions.
Diane Frances Lesley-NeumanFebruary 20,2024 at 7:16PM UTC
Been there.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 7:42AM UTC
If it has not already done so, wait until ageism hits you.
Ageism can be devastating. You will be fortunate if you do not experience it. And if you do experience ageism, you will want to see it incorporated in DEI initiatives.
By the way, I was inadvertently and blithely ageist when I was in my 30s and 40s. Changed my tune when I reached my mid-50s and I started to be affected by it.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:33AM UTC
A number of people have assumed that OP is the problem.
That’s open to question and is not indicated in OP’s letter.
My take:
1)Ageism is real and incidents like the one OP reports become more common as you get older.
2)At the same time, older job applicants have to be willing to report to and get along with young managers. My attitude is that the young managers arrived at the company before me and did well, so I have a lot to learn from them. Plus: older folks can learn a lot from younger folks, and vice versa.
Debbie KolbFebruary 21,2024 at 12:10PM UTC
I am going to be 62 and still working. We have been doing DEI training for the last two years and never do they talk about age. I don’t know why but maybe something to bring up
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 3:06PM UTC
Yeah that's the whole point of a hiring process; the interview process is to see if you fit into the organization.
It's not enough to just have the skills, organizations want to hire people who will work well together. Younger workers usually adopt a more flat reporting structure, which you interpret as them being friends. In my experience, older workers often don't have the same perspective on how to work together, and generally adhere to a more paternalistic and 'top-down" structure. This has been shown to create toxic work environments where people abuse of their power; younger workers are now in a position to change the status quo. Sorry to say it, but the tides are changing, and you will have to change with it. The fact that you see this as discriminatory in of itself says a lot about you and how you see the workplace, and was likely reflected in how you interviewed. Read some articles about how millennials work and lead.
Emily TwaddellFebruary 21,2024 at 8:19PM UTC
Harsh! "Older workers" - who are you describing? Older than, say, 40? 50? What about 70--should they just shut up and retire?
I'm taking issue with your generalization about workers (at least, those who are older than you) and how they/we don't know how to work together and prefer a top-down management structure. I have to say, basing this kind of judgment on only one's own experience means that you are going with a very small sample, and likely in a narrow range of professions. Many of us "older" workers have changed fields and careers several times during our working life--I've worked with truant kids and struggling families, with professors of mathematics, with physicists and engineers, web designers, software developers, and with toddlers. What I chose depended on the market, of course, but mainly, for at least 30 of those years, I made career decisions based on work that enabled me to parent as reasonably as possible, and that provided decent benefits. In all that time, I have *always" worked with teams as well as cross-functionally, always collaborated while doing my part independently. If I needed to know a new subject area, I researched it on my own; a new system or technology, often I just taught myself. As a mom, and now as an apparently un-hireable older worker, I know all about those toxic environments. This is not a new concept. Collaboration, shared leadership, and team members supporting each other have all been around a long time, as have innovation and flexibility. Give it a few decades, work with some people at least 20 years older than you, and then 20 years younger, and see what you think then.
AnonymousFebruary 21,2024 at 8:33PM UTC
ok so you were just looking for people to agree with you, sorry. Don't take the advice. good luck.
Theresa ReedFebruary 21,2024 at 4:23PM UTC
Ah yes, I love being judged by my age. You can't show someone who you are in a 30 minute interview. They've already made up their minds as soon as they see you on the screen. Maybe I should have my daughter start interviewing for me and see whether is really is "discrimination" or not. I guess being "inclusive" does not include anyone over 30 yrs old.
Dawn PerkinsFebruary 21,2024 at 7:53PM UTC
Hi, also 58. I've been out of work for over a year, applying and interviewing, doing all of the things that everyone and professionals say to do, but here I am, still not working. I don't mind one bit interviewing or working for someone much younger, I'd just like to work a job with a living wage. Here to commiserate I suppose, sorry, no advice here.
Diane Frances Lesley-NeumanFebruary 21,2024 at 9:52PM UTC
Go into the insurance industry. Age can even be an advantage.
Emily TwaddellFebruary 21,2024 at 8:24PM UTC
Says who? DE and I cover a very wide range of characteristics, including age, neurodiversity, physical able-ness and impairments, even some forms of mental illness. Where are you getting that narrow definition, and what does your "etc." include?
Joanna TaylorFebruary 21,2024 at 9:30PM UTC
What is DEI? Please anyone confirm so my brain can follow along. Please help and thank you so very much!!! :)
Joanna TaylorFebruary 21,2024 at 9:34PM UTC
Wow, I’m embarrassed!! Haha, now I know DEI = Diversity, Equality, Inclusion (I truly believe and hope I got that last letter correct!) lol thanks! Love you all for the previous information!!!
AnonymousFebruary 22,2024 at 5:52PM UTC
Good grief, this reeks of contempt for younger people. Before crying out "ageism", maybe do some introspection on your own biases.
AnonymousFebruary 23,2024 at 7:16PM UTC
It's entirely possible for young people to be biased against older people too.
LA+30yrsFebruary 25,2024 at 3:27PM UTC
I work with a majority of 30–40-year-olds. They are biased against older peers. I have found that they think older peers block their path to success. As I have stated in a comment before, they think we are taking up a younger peers' space. That's why in today's work environment we (older) cannot be slack in job performance. Everyone has to earn their spot on a daily basis. It is what it is. Recognize the issue and strategize to accomplish your goals.
AnonymousFebruary 23,2024 at 8:27PM UTC
I don't read 'contempt of younger people' from this.... It sounds like pain and frustration. Let's not be defensive but try to put ourselves in the place where this person was (although it is very difficult to do that not knowing all the circumstances). Stressed about an interview; truly NEEDS a job - not just wants one, and don't forget good, old FEAR. These situations and things do strange things to us....I've always found that it helps to put myself into that situation (mentally of course), and try to 'see the instance' as this job seeker saw it.
Beverly MolnarFebruary 25,2024 at 7:14PM UTC
I disagree. She is speaking of their contempt for her, not the other way around.
AnonymousFebruary 26,2024 at 4:44PM UTC
Would you make the same comment if the OP was a woman of color, disability, etc. and experiencing the same barriers?
Ageism is the ONLY accepted form of discrimination remaining. I hear it in jokes, see it online, on TV, and at the workplace.
While looking for a Halloween costume for my neighbor's kid, I even saw an "old lady" costume on Amazon.com for a little kid. It included a dowdy knitted sweater, a frumpy house dress, slippers, reading glasses and a cane. The message: older people are old, weak, infirm, and not capable. Yet, I have 80-something friends who run marathons and hike in Nepal.
Imagine seeing a Halloween costume of a Black or disabled person. People would be outraged (as they should be). You have clearly not experienced ageism but your time is coming...
Beverly MolnarFebruary 26,2024 at 10:31PM UTC
I’m not sure if your comment was directed at me. I think you may have responded to me by mistake. At age 62, I can assure you that I have most definitely experienced ageism and it stinks. I cannot wait to retire but unfortunately it won’t be anytime soon.
TCJDTVFebruary 26,2024 at 10:51PM UTC
No, she was not.
Pamela RosenFebruary 26,2024 at 7:30PM UTC
No contempt here. I love working with younger people. They expose me to all the new stuff and keep me in the know. (Who knew anime was so good?) However, I have experienced all of the following:
1) Walking into a job interview and watched the faces of ALL the twenty-somethings in the room literally fall as soon as they saw me.
2) Had a younger person reach over my shoulder and tap an app for me as if I didn't know what Twitter was.
3) Had technology that I'd been using for more than twenty years explained to me like I was five years old
3) Got fired soon after I had a heart incident scare (I'm fine now.)
4.) Been told (often) that I wouldn't fit into their company culture (because I am older than everyone else)
5) In a world full of frequent layoffs, I was able to get new jobs amazingly quickly until I turned 50. Then it was months and months.
6) Been forced to do things for team building events like rock climbing and curling and being told I'm not a team player because I don't have the same athletic ability as a 20 or 30 year old
Before you accuse us of not paying attention to our own biases, see if you see yourself doing any of those things to older workers, please.
sherri jonesFebruary 22,2024 at 7:46PM UTC
I live in Silicon Valley Ageism and Sexism is very real here, it's the underbelly of the liberal valley that no one likes to talk about
Pamela RosenFebruary 26,2024 at 7:22PM UTC
You're absolutely right. We had to move away to survive. I had 30+ years in tech and couldn't get a job anywhere in the valley.
AnonymousFebruary 26,2024 at 2:44AM UTC
I help people looking for jobs and I see it more and more every day!
AnonymousFebruary 26,2024 at 4:41PM UTC
They may feel intimated by you. Younger people can also feel uncomfortable managing employees who are similar in age to their parents.
Younger managers are rarely provided with training for this workplace dynamic, which is a shame because older people who want/need to work are not going away. Younger people may also fear that you will know more and undermine their credibility.
I'm convinced that many older, former professional people are underemployed at TJ Maxx, grocery stores, etc. because no one will hire them. A friend of mine calls these older people "senior slaves."
Also, companies may not want to pay for your experience/expertise. Before I went to grad school I saw job postings that were "looking for a young gun to run our marketing dept." Blatant ageism.
Can you consult or start your own business?
I'm about the same age as you but left a corporate career to become a therapist. I finished my MSW when I was 53 and it has been an uphill battle. I have been marginalized and ignored by classmates, professors have told me they only mentor "the younger students," have not been considered for "plum" internships that went to younger students "because they're just getting started and need a leg up," and so on.
I have asked "is it me?" It's possible that my resentment and frustration leak out. I make every effort to be friendly, professional, encouraging, etc. but I am 20-30 years older than my peers and am usually sidelined and excluded.
My current manager often speaks to me like I'm slow or have cognitive decline. After. while it can be tough to maintain a sunny, positive outlook at work.
I am finally about to start my own private practice and can't wait.
AnonymousFebruary 26,2024 at 7:32PM UTC
I think with your initial question, there's something you are missing: DEI, D&I, DEIB, etc...it's trendy. It's trendy for a company to say "we do this" they think if they are advertising that if they show they are supporters of diversity and inclusion (etc.) it's an additional recruitment tool. Really became popular during COVID. I think its popularity has been declining since. And I think, all along, many companies weren't truly onboard with it, but they understood how it could draw candidates.
Beverly MolnarApril 26,2024 at 2:12AM UTC
The point is, it’s kind of sad that we should have to resort to tactics that visually disguise who we are in order to be considered for a job. And they would eventually find out anyway.